Q: nature vs. nurture

[spirit]

OK. My previous thread regarding "evil people" was an INTRO post... to find out [less or more]... what kind of social group AF members represent. It seems likely you are "typical" western thinkers, in other words some of you won't believe in something unless it's physical or/and "proven".
In general, speaking of Westerners, USA citizens tend to be less open minded than Eastern countries with ancient-based culture, history, traditions as well as deep-rooted beliefs.

This thread concerns one of the most controversial topics touched by numerous scientists, philosophers, theoreticians etc. It is an ongoing debate as well as dilemma to which no one can find the absolute axiomatic answer.
I would like you to discuss our human kind and its nature. The way we are - especially our psyche and behavior... is it an outcome of the environmental impact... or something we are born with?

In my own opinion human mentality and behavior, shouldn't be ever put as contradiction of either nature over nurture or vice versa. I believe it is a combination of both.... so instead of "vs"... it should be nature + nurture.
I believe people are born with numerous predispositions (in other words "features") which if triggered by the environment they live in, life circumstances, the way they were brought up - they might envelope or not - like hidden talents, ability to become a "mathematical genius," great in sport or even the predisposition to become a serial killer.
We have "encoded data" withing our gens. Even the reason why we experience the phenomenon like stress or fear, it is due to our genetics, and ancestors who developed this emotional/physical state of the body and mind to simply survive... and then passed it onto next human generations.

If some of us are unfamiliar which what is it all about nature vs. nurture then here's a note from Wikipedia:
The nature versus nurture debates concern the relative importance of an individual's innate qualities ("nature", i.e. nativism, or philosophical empiricism, innatism) versus personal experiences ("nurture") in determining or causing individual differences in physical and behavioral traits. The view that humans acquire all or almost all their behavioral traits from "nurture" is known as tabula rasa ("blank slate"). This question was once considered to be an appropriate division of developmental influences, but since both types of factors are known to play such interacting roles in development, many modern psychologists consider the question naive - representing an outdated state of knowledge. The famous psychologist Donald Hebb is said to have once answered a journalist's question of "which, nature or nurture, contributes more to personality?" by asking in response, "which contributes more to the area of a rectangle, its length or its width?". For a discussion of nature versus nurture in language and other human universals, see also psychological nativism.
For more info go to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_versus_nurture) or google (http://www.google.com/search?q=Nature+versus+nurture&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a).

[sleeper101]

Wow that was long but it makes think and now i must go and ponder what i just read but i agree with you its a combonation of nature and nurture. Well i'm off to ponder.

[Ryuuzaki]

Yeah...Okay I didn't read all that, but I read enough to get the gist of what your talking about. So yeah, I think it's a combo of both...Mhm.

[spirit]

Yeah...Okay I didn't read all that, but I read enough to get the gist of what your talking about. So yeah, I think it's a combo of both...Mhm.
haha, I changed the font size... now, it's a bit shorter... lol You don't have to read the Wiki part!!
Well, I added text from Wiki... so other ppl who never heard about it could find some info... ;) :dizzy:

[monsoon 10]

Nurture, I frankly believe any sort of mental and physical conditioning can eliminate any genetic disposition.

[leerock89]

I have no idea what we are supposed to talk about here.... should I be arguing about how that was just a load of crap cause I don't see it actually applying? Or should I be championing the whole theory of it becuase thats what i define my life to be? Or maybe should I just laugh at it and talk about cheese?

Cheese
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cheese is a food made from milk, usually the milk of cows, buffalo, goats, or sheep, by coagulation. The milk is acidified, typically with a bacterial culture, then the addition of the enzyme rennet or a substitute (e.g. acetic acid or vinegar) causes coagulation, to give "curds and whey".[1] Some cheeses also have molds, either on the outer rind (similar to a fruit peel) or throughout.

Hundreds of types of cheese are produced. Their different styles, textures and flavors depend on the origin of the milk (including the animal's diet), whether it has been pasteurized, butterfat content, the species of bacteria and mold, and the processing including the length of aging. Herbs, spices, or wood smoke may be used as flavoring agents. The yellow to red color of many cheeses is a result of adding annatto. Cheeses are eaten both on their own and cooked in various dishes; most cheeses melt when heated.

For a few cheeses, the milk is curdled by adding acids such as vinegar or lemon juice. Most cheeses are acidified to a lesser degree by bacteria, which turn milk sugars into lactic acid, then the addition of rennet completes the curdling. Vegetarian alternatives to rennet are available; most are produced by fermentation of the fungus Mucor miehei, but others have been extracted from various species of the Cynara thistle family.

Cheese has served as a hedge against famine and is a good travel food. It is valuable for its portability, long life, and high content of fat, protein, calcium, and phosphorus. Cheese is more compact and has a longer shelf life than the milk from which it is made. Cheesemakers near a dairy region may benefit from fresher, lower-priced milk, and lower shipping costs. The long storage life of cheese allows selling it when markets are more favorable.

[Mugen]

China phoned, they want their wall back!

If I've got hidden powers written in my genes, they better wake up soon!

[monsoon 10]

Cheese
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cheese is a food made from milk, usually the milk of cows, buffalo, goats, or sheep, by coagulation. The milk is acidified, typically with a bacterial culture, then the addition of the enzyme rennet or a substitute (e.g. acetic acid or vinegar) causes coagulation, to give "curds and whey".[1] Some cheeses also have molds, either on the outer rind (similar to a fruit peel) or throughout.

Hundreds of types of cheese are produced. Their different styles, textures and flavors depend on the origin of the milk (including the animal's diet), whether it has been pasteurized, butterfat content, the species of bacteria and mold, and the processing including the length of aging. Herbs, spices, or wood smoke may be used as flavoring agents. The yellow to red color of many cheeses is a result of adding annatto. Cheeses are eaten both on their own and cooked in various dishes; most cheeses melt when heated.

For a few cheeses, the milk is curdled by adding acids such as vinegar or lemon juice. Most cheeses are acidified to a lesser degree by bacteria, which turn milk sugars into lactic acid, then the addition of rennet completes the curdling. Vegetarian alternatives to rennet are available; most are produced by fermentation of the fungus Mucor miehei, but others have been extracted from various species of the Cynara thistle family.

Cheese has served as a hedge against famine and is a good travel food. It is valuable for its portability, long life, and high content of fat, protein, calcium, and phosphorus. Cheese is more compact and has a longer shelf life than the milk from which it is made. Cheesemakers near a dairy region may benefit from fresher, lower-priced milk, and lower shipping costs. The long storage life of cheese allows selling it when markets are more favorable.

SPAM: Luncheon meat is a canned precooked meat product made by the Hormel Foods Corporation. The labeled ingredients in the Classic variety of Spam are: chopped pork shoulder meat with ham meat added, salt, water, sugar, and sodium nitrite to help "keep its color". The product has become part of many jokes and urban legends about mystery meat, which has made it part of pop culture and folklore.

Varieties of Spam vary by region and include Spam Classic, Spam Hot & Spicy, Spam Less Sodium, Spam Lite, Spam Oven Roasted Turkey, and Spam Spread.[1] - the latter is also available as halal food (see the halal sign on cans), meaning that it is permissible under Islamic law, and is especially popular in Muslim markets.

Spam is produced in (among other places) Austin, Minnesota, USA (also known as Spam Town USA). In 2002, the six billionth can of Spam was sold.[2] Spam for the UK market is produced in Denmark by Tulip under license from Hormel.


http://noticethings.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/spam.jpg

[Ryuuzaki]

I believe this topic has gone slightly off topic...

[Mugen]

SPAM: Luncheon meat is a canned precooked meat product made by the Hormel Foods Corporation. The labeled ingredients in the Classic variety of Spam are: chopped pork shoulder meat with ham meat added, salt, water, sugar, and sodium nitrite to help "keep its color". The product has become part of many jokes and urban legends about mystery meat, which has made it part of pop culture and folklore.

Varieties of Spam vary by region and include Spam Classic, Spam Hot & Spicy, Spam Less Sodium, Spam Lite, Spam Oven Roasted Turkey, and Spam Spread.[1] - the latter is also available as halal food (see the halal sign on cans), meaning that it is permissible under Islamic law, and is especially popular in Muslim markets.

Spam is produced in (among other places) Austin, Minnesota, USA (also known as Spam Town USA). In 2002, the six billionth can of Spam was sold.[2] Spam for the UK market is produced in Denmark by Tulip under license from Hormel.


http://noticethings.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/spam.jpgIf you like to take drive threads more off-topic, park yourself in the Spam Forums and steer all forums till your hearts content. You WILL respect my authoritaaahh!

[leerock89]

Sorry spirit. As you can see some of us can't take this kind of stuff seriously. To much thinking involved or something like that. I'd rather watch anime and talk dumb.

[Ryuuzaki]

Sorry spirit. As you can see some of us can't take this kind of stuff seriously. To much thinking involved or something like that. I'd rather watch anime and talk dumb.
I'm with ya on that! xD We can just talk dumb and watch anime together. :P

[Mugen]

And this is why men fail as a species. Lmao.

[Ryuuzaki]

And this is why men fail as a species. Lmao.

Eh, I can deal with failing, but you have to admit, it is fun. :P

[leerock89]

Yes I say let the women take control.. And if we all happen to get wiped out we could point our finger at them for once...

[alsharid]

nature + nurture

[tripletres]

to say the truth, i am completly lost. and dont explain it to me, i dont want to think that hard.

[Nahmu]

well, i'm very interested in the nature v nurture discussion. and while i like donald hebb's answer about his rectangle, i still side with monsoon on this and strongly favor nurture's ability to shape a person's personality.

i don't know much about innate emotional or psychological predispositions, but for the pure reason that i love independence, free will, self-determination, self-reliance, self-sufficiency... i have to argue that we are able to create ourselves. i argue thus because i believe we are not born with a fixed fate, but rather are the creation of our surroundings. it is much more comforting to know we could become anything we wanted because of the environment in which we grow rather than destined to become who we are because of our genetic make up.

[analogZero]

I'm not reading until you rewrite or I develop more patience...please stand by...

[spirit]

I'm not reading until you rewrite or I develop more patience...please stand by...
errrr... who are you talking to? me?
What do you want me to rewrite....
hahaha.... or this is just the way you joke.. yeah "develop".... pffff...

thanks guys... /sarcasm

I know I can't ask girls too difficult questions because I believe that the majority of them is to "simple-minded".... but you have just disappointed me....
And I thought you were those brilliant men with intellectual potential to express... ahhh....I guess I was wrong.... you just want to fool around, pffff.... haha ;)

[analogZero]

a pool took priority. don't argue that. you'll lose.
actually, now having read you've made a rather interesting point to which I'd be fit to agree with you. People tend to look for the fool hearty quick fix answer that doesn't rely on too much thought, ie. picking one side. It takes more than eating a square meal every day to grow up big and mighty, and sure we probably take it for granted. But to try to perfect the science of human development is a bit of a waste of life in my opinion. I know we're out to strive for the best in ourselves and in societal development, but when I see all the crazy crap people are trying to do with their children (in and out of the womb) it makes me think we're fn lost. It's like we're out to mold everything around us, like peewee coaches yelling at children that they're not playing the game right. We may all have the potential for greatness, but we're not all going to be rockstars, or champion athletes, or powerful leaders in business. Why? not so much that we haven't discovered our latent abilities, but more to the point that there's to fn many of us and there's only so much room before somebody gets bumped from the podium. be it our blood or our environment we're bound to what we decide to make of it. you have as much control over your development and progression through your life as your double helix configurations or that butterfly that just flapped it's wings. now get out there and give em all you got, sport.

[Rincewind]

I belive its mainly nurture ! genes go ***** yourself ! :P

[suune]

Everything is connected so nature and nuture both count.

[spirit]

I belive its mainly nurture ! genes go ***** yourself ! :P
wow, so you believe we adopt nothing from previous generations through the gens? So, in other words... you believe that the color of your skin.. comes from.. the surroundings?? Or that you didn't inherit any skills/talents from your parents/grandparents etc?

[SinXxX]

I think it is both. Not to say, its definitely both. It depends.
-There are times you can't shape a person, just because they are not cut for it. Some parents might have tried to raise a scholar child, but failed eventhough whatever they tried.
-There are also talents, and geniuses, which are just part of the person's nature. They are not taught, but they are build to do those things.
-There are also times you can change/shape a person. Teaching is one of the methods. Discipline, Brainwashing etc. etc.
-Some improve by somebody helping, or by helping themselves.
I can't think straight right now, but I think I pointed some examples I want to say. Nature or Nurture? Its both, but it depends on many factors.

[RzXzB]

I would have to go with nurture

[sleeper101]

ouch analog you just got burned by spirit thats the worst

[spirit]

ouch analog you just got burned by spirit thats the worst
errr... why did you say so?
not really... I combined... a couple replies together.. because some ppl accuse me of making double posts... that's the only reason... I made a combo together w/ his quote ;) However it wasn't all addressed to him ;)
Umm, and I didn't really mean to get anyone burnt...... hehe ^^

[sleeper101]

i was reading off the second page lol so i posted and forgot about the third page.

[spirit]

i was reading off the second page lol so i posted and forgot about the third page.
yeah, that makes sense... ;)... you could miss a lot of information ;)
and this is a difficult topic, too...

[analogZero]

you had me confused for a second there, sleeper. but I was swimming in a wonderful pool at the time, so any burns were quickly soothed. thumbs up me!

[leerock89]

This is just one of those things that will never have a definite answer only cause there is no real determining factor. Both nature and nurture are around during ones life, and depending on parents and society, one will have more of one side then the other. The way I see it is why even think of these things?? Just life your life to the fullest and do things that make you happy. Screw everyone else, and I mean that only cause if you don't do what you want to do it tends to destroy you... This is one very cruel world, we enter in pain, and more likely then not, we leave in pain so it's best to be happy with yourself, whatever you might consider being happy is.

And on a side note, I still choose cheese and spam over this....

[analogZero]

leerock right, chaos math make brain go fuzzy.
eat cheese!...spam negotiable...and should be considered illegal in some regions.

[Nahmu]

wow, so you believe we adopt nothing from previous generations through the gens? So, in other words... you believe that the color of your skin.. comes from.. the surroundings?? Or that you didn't inherit any skills/talents from your parents/grandparents etc?

i thought the basis of the nature v. nurture argument was personality traits? we can obviously inherit physical aspects of ourselves from genes, and it's true that those genes can affect how we are treated in our environment (which would mean, in my interpretation that, nurture> nature once again), but i thought we were talking about how our personalities are shaped, not our skin tone?

[MelBrooks]

i was confused

[analogZero]

but i thought we were talking about how our personalities are shaped, not our skin tone?

on the skin tone thing tho, I've known a small handful of mixed race kids and sometimes it's difficult to say which parent's skin tone they take after and sometimes it's overly apparent. so It can be argued that we favour certain parents and that it's difficult to determine from birth where said favour lies. heck, maybe two typical people give birth to a dwarfed albino transgender?

ps. please nobody get into an argument about what's "typical". I made a blunt statement here with a blunt word that though it may have swagger and sway in meaning, I'm sure we can all follow what I'm going for here.

[spirit]

i thought the basis of the nature v. nurture argument was personality traits? we can obviously inherit physical aspects of ourselves from genes, and it's true that those genes can affect how we are treated in our environment (which would mean, in my interpretation that, nurture> nature once again), but i thought we were talking about how our personalities are shaped, not our skin tone?
haha, no... this topic is about everything that makes us human, which includes both physical as well as nonphysical aspects of us. Well, our personality, thoughts, emotions - in general everything what we carry inside - have a huge impact on our outside appearance, don't you think? Starting with the face expressions... body shape... and especially the way we behave.... or even the style of the cloths we wear. One depends on the other.
Btw, now you just showed me you think like Eastern ppl do, since you believe that personality (which is certainly a part of human mind) is not a part of our "anatomy" (physical part) but is non-physical. I hope you get what I mean. ;))))

[Nahmu]

haha, no... this topic is about everything that makes us human, which includes both physical as well as nonphysical aspects of us. ;))))

well, if it is the case that we are arguing about physical AND non physical traits, then it has to be argued that genes create our physical make up. however, when i think about this discussion, i only entertain the creation of personalities because those are so much more important to me than how someone looks. only when physical aspects are interpreted as being in such a way that they're treated differently (therefore changing the influencing factor from nature back to nurture) have i been thinking of physical characteristics. that was my mistake, but in light of recent posts, i would have to change my vote from "nurture" to a combo of the two.

[monsoon 10]

I know I can't ask girls too difficult questions because I believe that the majority of them is to "simple-minded".... but you have just disappointed me....
And I thought you were those brilliant men with intellectual potential to express... ahhh....I guess I was wrong.... you just want to fool around, pffff.... haha ;)

Such sexist behavior plenty of woman's rights activist must be turning in their graves./sarcasm

[spirit]

Such sexist behavior plenty of woman's rights activist must be turning in their graves./sarcasm
I know you are aware of it... I was just provoking you all to think, right?
Pay attention to the compliments and not complaints. ;))))

[Koopaking]

Nature, Nuture, who cares. We are who we are. Why must we question how we came to be this way?

[analogZero]

Nature, Nuture, who cares. We are who we are. Why must we question how we came to be this way?

They're only one letter off from one another. they shouldn't be bickering.

[spirit]

They're only one letter off from one another. they shouldn't be bickering.
LOL, well someone purposely chose those two words so they look alike/sound alike...

[analogZero]

yes pitting siblings together in an all out death match is a good idea!

[Salt]

Rules aside, the use of Spam information to spam a thread was pretty clever. I laughed. :P

... But, uhm, yes. Never do it again, and please redirect your distractionary efforts to the approved spam board. ^_^

[Salt]

If you like to take drive threads more off-topic, park yourself in the Spam Forums and steer all forums till your hearts content. You WILL respect my authoritaaahh!

Rules aside, the use of Spam information to spam a thread was pretty clever. I laughed. :P

... But, uhm, yes. Never do it again, and please redirect your distractionary efforts to the approved spam board. ^_^


EDIT: Bah, replying to something from the first page. For the second or third time, I've failed to see that there are multiple pages to the thread. Excuse me for being retarded. >_<


In an effort to salvage what I can from this post, I'll add to the conversation by saying this:

I agree that both our environment and circumstances, as well as our inherited traits, play a role in our development. However, must everything come down to genes in the area of "nature?" It seems to me that the idea of personality involves more than physical inheritance. Should we not also consider the factor of the "soul?"

[spirit]

Rules aside, the use of Spam information to spam a thread was pretty clever. I laughed. :P

... But, uhm, yes. Never do it again, and please redirect your distractionary efforts to the approved spam board. ^_^


EDIT: Bah, replying to something from the first page. For the second or third time, I've failed to see that there are multiple pages to the thread. Excuse me for being retarded. >_<


In an effort to salvage what I can from this post, I'll add to the conversation by saying this:

I agree that both our environment and circumstances, as well as our inherited traits, play a role in our development. However, must everything come down to genes in the area of "nature?" It seems to me that the idea of personality involves more than physical inheritance. Should we not also consider the factor of the "soul?"
Haha, I noticed you made a double post.... and one was part of the another.... I was confused, but then I saw *EDIT..... LOL - soo funny xD
I loved your reply to the topic. And as an answer to your last question... I would eagerly encourage you to study the previous posts. I know there are those which are slightly "off the topic"... however, some people were being serious about it, including MYSELF ^_^ You should definitely read my posts, hehe... and others. I think you might find the answer ;)

[MelBrooks]

i still dont get what this poll is for

[spirit]

i still dont get what this poll is for
So, open your mind and start thinking! lol ;)
btw, you don't get the poll, or what we are talking about in this thread?

[Salt]

It's about hot dogs. You know, do we nurture the piggies in order to make them fat for slaughtering, for the purpose of creating hot dogs? Or do we wait for them to die naturally, and then scoop them up for our dining pleasure?

^_^

[spirit]

It's about hot dogs. You know, do we nurture the piggies in order to make them fat for slaughtering, for the purpose of creating hot dogs? Or do we wait for them to die naturally, and then scoop them up for our dining pleasure?

^_^
ROTFLMAO.... HA HA HAAA....
you should add to it Mel's quote... so he knows... you were referring to his question... hehe ; )

yo ok... fun if fun... but please don't let it... spoil you too much ; )
It is supposed to be a "serious" matter to discuss... LOL.. xD

[analogZero]

It's about hot dogs. You know, do we nurture the piggies in order to make them fat for slaughtering, for the purpose of creating hot dogs? Or do we wait for them to die naturally, and then scoop them up for our dining pleasure?

^_^

hey, how 'bout this? If you were a hot dog, and you were starving, would you eat yourself?
http://static1.videosift.com/thumbs/w/il/Will_Ferrell_as_Harry_Caray_if_you_a_hotdog.jpg

[spirit]

hey, how 'bout this? If you were a hot dog, and you were starving, would you eat yourself?
http://static1.videosift.com/thumbs/w/il/Will_Ferrell_as_Harry_Caray_if_you_a_hotdog.jpg
LOL.... that's even better!!!!


but seriously. we are losing our topic... haha

[analogZero]

LOL.... that's even better!!!!


but seriously. we are losing our topic... haha

true, but you didn't answer the question. It's easy, a baby could answer it. If you were a hot dog...and you were starving...would you eat yourself?

[Salt]

Okay, okay. Enough spamming. Sorry, Spirit. ^_^

(Long live SNL, haha)

[spirit]

true, but you didn't answer the question. It's easy, a baby could answer it. If you were a hot dog...and you were starving...would you eat yourself?
I thought you were referring to Salt.
And my answer is NO.
Plus I would never be a Hot Dog.

well, if this is some metaphoric way of speaking about the human existence.... lol....

[milo]

Totally lost here!

[analogZero]

Totally lost here!

just say yes and we'll move on!

[Salt]

The concept is pretty simple, Milo, once you break it down. "Nature vs. Nurture" (from what I understand based on what was said in the original post to this thread) basically refers to the two apparent methods of development through which an individual goes during his lifetime: on the one hand, Nature implies all of the stuff you start with at birth, as dictated by your genes; and on the other hand, Nurture implies the circumstances and environment you grow up with. The debate is over the exact role each of these plays in how you, for instance, became who you are now: Were you born the way you are, with all of your physical/mental/personality/etc. traits inherited at birth, or were you born a blank slate, and are simply a product of your environment/upbringing?

I hope that made sense. <_<

[carolyn07]

...i didnt read all that but i guess i know your point!,.

i think its both!,.

there are some thinks you cant change coz your born with it,.and there are some things about you because your nurturing it!,.like for example the environment you live in!,.

do i make myself crystal clear?,.lol♥

[Axe Man]

don't u thnk this is kinda over thought? lol I think we are what we want to be I don't think anything triggers us towar a certain path unless we let it. if that's wut you getting at.

[mszjay14]

i love nature...and i also love the nurture of the environment...so i picked both!

[LoKiWorlD]

Nature + Nurture

I think like this all the time. Some might believe its pointless to question ones existence or search for some type of an explanation for what is said to be unanswerable. Even though it may be an endless mind #%&* I can't help but keep an open mind and find a reasonable enough answer to satisfy my curiousity. Now I would go into explaining my choice in this topic but then I'd end up writing paragraphs and "I loath paragraphs!" Oh maaan...I just wrote one. XD

[spirit]

Nature + Nurture

I think like this all the time. Some might believe its pointless to question ones existence or search for some type of an explanation for what is said to be unanswerable. Even though it may be an endless mind #%&* I can't help but keep an open mind and find a reasonable enough answer to satisfy my curiousity. Now I would go into explaining my choice in this topic but then I'd end up writing paragraphs and "I loath paragraphs!" Oh maaan...I just wrote one. XDI guess we have some "smart" people in here... and I'm glad to see them around ;)
I bet I've said that before... personally I believe it is a combination of both... and if there is anyone who thinks it isn't then ... go educate yourself but more importantly observe.. observe.. the world... and learn from it. Because books, scientific experiments and "dry data" isn't everything out there.. There are things unexplained or simply beyond our minds. "Things, even the greatest thinkers haven't dreamt about."

[analogZero]

I guess we have some "smart" people in here... and I'm glad to see them around ;)
I bet I've said that before... personally I believe it is a combination of both... and if there is anyone who thinks it isn't then ... go educate yourself but more importantly observe.. observe.. the world... and learn from it. Because books, scientific experiments and "dry data" isn't everything out there.. There are things unexplained or simply beyond our minds. "Things, even the greatest thinkers haven't dreamt about."

very true. I found this picture of a rabbit duck hybrid today and I was befoggled.
http://rodcorp.typepad.com/photos/art_1992_2002/dr_emailaime.gif