God. Does he exist?

[iMuffin x3]

See at school I'm always judged for my beliefs, why? cause I don't believe in God. BUT, see, my reasoning. . I don't think one god can do it all. I'm wiccan, it's a nature based religion, and I believe in several gods and goddesses.

So what do you think does God in fact exist?

[soulten]

Here he is.
http://www.itchstudios.com/psg/other/fsm.jpg

[CydLovely]

O so in your religion what do you believe I believe in god but in my religion i am not able to kiss nor have sexual intercourse with the opposite sex until i am married.

[Memorix]

I'm not sure if he's real or not... Sometimes it is hard to think that there really is a god, seeing as to how he never really does anything.. But i do go to church and all so i have to believe in him.

[iMuffin x3]

Cyd ; You can't kiss till marriage? O__O I could not do that. But how my religion goes, it's pretty much free reign. Just, don't harm others.

[Shi-chan]

I suppose we're talking about the christian god here? I thought that one was a bit ... bleh. So I just created another one. much more fun that way.

[leshinor]

Well, I believe He exists.
About you muffin, well why do you believe in many gods?

@Shi-chan: what do you mean created another one? Another god or another thread??? :dizzy:

[iMuffin x3]

Leshinor;
I do believe in many gods. . . and if you meant to ask why, well I have this little thing I always use to explain it. . .
Alright say there's two buisnesses.
Buisness A has just a boss, no employees.
Buisness B had a boss and thousands of employees.
THier both trying to do the EXACT same thing.
Which buiness makes more sence.
Buiness B, easily.

Now say the buisnesses is like, everything.
And boss A would be god.
And boss B and employees B would be gods and goddesses.

[Viduus]

No.

But there's like 4 different threads about this general subject already.

[leshinor]

Leshinor;
I do believe in many gods. . . and if you meant to ask why, well I have this little thing I always use to explain it. . .
Alright say there's two buisnesses.
Buisness A has just a boss, no employees.
Buisness B had a boss and thousands of employees.
THier both trying to do the EXACT same thing.
Which buiness makes more sence.
Buiness B, easily.

Now say the buisnesses is like, everything.
And boss A would be god.
And boss B and employees B would be gods and goddesses.

Yup, sorry I meant why do you believe in many gods. I fixed it!!!

About your argument, it has a major flaw. What if boss A was completely amazing. Wouldn't he over power everyone in B?
See it this way: if there was a group of people fighting one guy, you would guess that the group would win. But, if the guy had superpowers then he could beat them down
What I am trying to say is, you need to consider the potential of one group.

So, returning to the subject, if God is a powerful being that has no limitations to His power, then He doesn't need any help from others to achieve something.
Here's another example: lets say there is an artist competing with a bunch of other artists. If the first artist is really good then he could make a wonderful painting while the many artists couldn't do that if they did not have his/her talent.

@Vidus: Well this one is more like is there no God, one God or many gods, so it is different!

[iMuffin x3]

Leshinor ;
Why's Boss A gotta be so special.
That's like saying your better than everyone.

[Shi-chan]

Well, I believe He exists.
About you muffin, well why do you believe in many gods?

@Shi-chan: what do you mean created another one? Another god or another thread??? :dizzy:

Sorta invented another god. Not a 'If you don't believe you die' god, more of a 'Mmkay. Chill out, relax. Be groovy.' god.

[leshinor]

Leshinor ;
Why's Boss A gotta be so special.
That's like saying your better than everyone.

Well, why not? I believe God is a perfect being. Is it not better to have one perfect being than many imperfect ones? Perfection is like infinity. Even if you add many big numbers they will not reach infinity. Same with perfection. Even if there are many imperfect beings and they work together, they will never be as good as a perfect one!

[iMuffin x3]

Well whose sayiong the ones in buiness B are imperfect?

[leshinor]

Well then what is the point of having many perfect beings working together to make smth imperfect. The difference between perfection and imperfection is huge. Nature, even though sublime, is imperfect. So one God would have been more than enough to create it.

[iMuffin x3]

But all those in B could be perfect.
Their just perfect in certian things.

Your practically saying perfect hasto be perfect in EVERYTHING. It's like saying you have to do a project with a report and visual aid, with no help, and get itdone in the same time and better than one's in a group who are just flat out awesome in what they are doing

[leshinor]

But all those in B could be perfect.
Their just perfect in certian things.

Your practically saying perfect hasto be perfect in EVERYTHING. It's like saying you have to do a project with a report and visual aid, with no help, and get itdone in the same time and better than one's in a group who are just flat out awesome in what they are doing

Of course i mean perfect in everything. If you are perfect in doing the report and the visual aid then it is gonna be just as easy and good as the report and visual aid done by two ppl that are perfect in one of the 2!

[am0184]

I stick my agreements with leshinor's argument, and this is all I have to say on the matter besides that the rest of you having ur own beliefs is cool, too. Carry on.

[analogZero]

I want to see these gods duke it out. the logic that "what if one god had super powers" is utterly ridiculous. this is all leading to a similar argument along the lines of my dad can beat up your dad. neither of you have backing for whose god is more godly. their all gods. 1=1, or in this case 1= (lots of fractions that add up to 1). If I'm not mistaken this is a thread about your belief in god, not which god would win in a battle royale of deities...which would make for a good thread should anyone care to make it.

[leshinor]

I want to see these gods duke it out. the logic that "what if one god had super powers" is utterly ridiculous. this is all leading to a similar argument along the lines of my dad can beat up your dad. neither of you have backing for whose god is more godly. their all gods. 1=1, or in this case 1= (lots of fractions that add up to 1). If I'm not mistaken this is a thread about your belief in god, not which god would win in a battle royale of deities...which would make for a good thread should anyone care to make it.

Huh!?! It's not like that at all! We are arguing over what are God's powers. I believe that there is only one God and that he is absolutely perfect. Muffin said she believes that there are many Gods that are perfect in something. We are not arguing over which concept is the strongest or smth like that. We are just trying to figure out which scenario would be more effective.
Also that 1=1 thing you said is not true. There are religions, like the ancient ones, that stated that gods are not perfect, in fact they presented them with many flows. So, I was trying to understand how Muffin considers the gods to be like.

[CydLovely]

Cyd ; You can't kiss till marriage? O__O I could not do that. But how my religion goes, it's pretty much free reign. Just, don't harm others.

well it is very hard to try not to kiss but ive been consistent with it so..... in your religion what do you do? like how many gods are there in your religion.:happy:

[iMuffin x3]

well it is very hard to try not to kiss but ive been consistent with it so..... in your religion what do you do? like how many gods are there in your religion.:happy:
Yeah,I couldn't do it. ._.
Well in my religion,it's just more or so honoring the gods with feast and/or spells and rituals. And no, It's not curses and voodoo dolls, like everyone thinks it is.
&& I'm Norse-Wiccan, so I believe in the Norse gods. Like Thor, Freya, Frey, Loki, Odin, and so on.

[CydLovely]

Yeah,I couldn't do it. ._.
Well in my religion,it's just more or so honoring the gods with feast and/or spells and rituals. And no, It's not curses and voodoo dolls, like everyone thinks it is.
&& I'm Norse-Wiccan, so I believe in the Norse gods. Like Thor, Freya, Frey, Loki, Odin, and so on.


Well i think that is cool to learn other religions other then our owns. well all i can say is if you believe in it and love it then stick with it.:kawaii:

[caine104]

The only way to judge a religions worth is by learning fully so in order to judge a religion you must learn them all :)

[analogZero]

Huh!?! It's not like that at all! We are arguing over what are God's powers. I believe that there is only one God and that he is absolutely perfect. Muffin said she believes that there are many Gods that are perfect in something. We are not arguing over which concept is the strongest or smth like that. We are just trying to figure out which scenario would be more effective.
Also that 1=1 thing you said is not true. There are religions, like the ancient ones, that stated that gods are not perfect, in fact they presented them with many flows. So, I was trying to understand how Muffin considers the gods to be like.

It just rubbed off that way with me. Your understandable attempts to comprehend her religious affiliation just appeared rather outlandish and a little demeaning, saying her gods may be a weaker team (not to say that's your intention, of course).
There's no means by which to gauge a god's power. there's no god-o-meter. Just because some dudes a while back wrote down that certain gods are better or have fewer flaws, or that one can run faster than the rest doesn't mean jack, cuz the guy wasn't some godly adjudicator.
The Norse gods (muffin can correct me if I'm wrong) are much like many other polytheistic religions in that rather than allotting all aspects of the world to one divine moderator, you share the burden amongst many. It's a rather interesting concept and explains why everything can become so easily intertwined. Your power is only equal to the amount you control, and in this case the amount controlled is always equal. The universe. Therefore to maintain the universe a certain amount of power is needed, and thus regardless of your god(s), the power is equal.
I've probably added two cents far too many when I just meant to keep this thing on track. Though I've been quite proud of people of late concerning the religious threads that popped up, they do tend to go off track (which is why others have been closed in the past), and this one looked like it was starting too. If I'm not mistaken this is a question of whether you believe in a god/greater presence/holy diety(s) or not. Not which is the more effective or enlightened path.
while I'm stretching my breath I might as well say that I don't believe in a god. simple as that...*inhales*

[Jello]

well, i believe there is a God. of course, im Christian, and even though i do have freedom of belief, i still choose to believe in God. i understand why people whould believe in God at a time like this, but im very faithfull in my faith, so that helps. i guess whatever you believe in believe in. im not sure how to make you believe in my God without a miracle, so believe in what you believe in now.

[leerock89]

It just rubbed off that way with me. Your understandable attempts to comprehend her religious affiliation just appeared rather outlandish and a little demeaning, saying her gods may be a weaker team (not to say that's your intention, of course).
There's no means by which to gauge a god's power. there's no god-o-meter. Just because some dudes a while back wrote down that certain gods are better or have fewer flaws, or that one can run faster than the rest doesn't mean jack, cuz the guy wasn't some godly adjudicator.
The Norse gods (muffin can correct me if I'm wrong) are much like many other polytheistic religions in that rather than allotting all aspects of the world to one divine moderator, you share the burden amongst many. It's a rather interesting concept and explains why everything can become so easily intertwined. Your power is only equal to the amount you control, and in this case the amount controlled is always equal. The universe. Therefore to maintain the universe a certain amount of power is needed, and thus regardless of your god(s), the power is equal.
I've probably added two cents far too many when I just meant to keep this thing on track. Though I've been quite proud of people of late concerning the religious threads that popped up, they do tend to go off track (which is why others have been closed in the past), and this one looked like it was starting too. If I'm not mistaken this is a question of whether you believe in a god/greater presence/holy diety(s) or not. Not which is the more effective or enlightened path.
while I'm stretching my breath I might as well say that I don't believe in a god. simple as that...*inhales*
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

[fatboi1113]

NO!!! if god did exist, he wouldn't let wars take place. I believe in the theory of evolution.

[JesiGash]

I want to see these gods duke it out. the logic that "what if one god had super powers" is utterly ridiculous. this is all leading to a similar argument along the lines of my dad can beat up your dad. neither of you have backing for whose god is more godly. their all gods. 1=1, or in this case 1= (lots of fractions that add up to 1). If I'm not mistaken this is a thread about your belief in god, not which god would win in a battle royale of deities...which would make for a good thread should anyone care to make it.

Actually, there are numerous Biblical occurrences in which God has proved Himself to be... well, God. He did this by standing up to to what the other god's followers were saying about their god. But you're right, this was shaping out to be a "my dad... your dad" type thing and just to put in my two cents on that topic; My God could/can/will beat your God at anything! ^^


Anyway, on to the real topic. The thing about humans, whether they be Christian or not, is that they tend to put the Almighty God in a box ( or try to make Him small enough to understand Him). This cannot happen... Ever. So to know if God is truly real or not you have to talk about what makes Him real. By this I mean His attributes. Only by discussing these will we not be tempted to "put Him in a box". Ok, here is a list of God's attributes:

God is: Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Sovereign, Eternal, Immutable, Righteous, Love, Just, Veracity; God is an All Consuming Fire, Truth, Faithful, Kind, Caring, Compassionate, Hope, Salvation, Long Suffering, Peace, Joy, Infinite, Self Proclaiming, The Beginning and The End; God is Life, and God is Forgiving. Those are just a few of the ones we know about! That's 28 + attributes that are only found in ONE God! So you say, "how can one God do everything?" That is explained in the first THREE of His attributes! Now I don;t know about you but I had a choice, like everyone else, whether or not to choose to follow a god/gods that either had to work together to accomplish anything or was still learning and a God that COULD do everything Himself AND already knew everything. It's like this, you have a student edition of The Websters Dictionary (as we all know a Student edition does not have every word in the english dictionary), but you have a question on a word not found in the Student Edition. What are you going to do? Are you going to continue using the dictionary that cannot tell you what you want to know or are you going to find the dictionary that will tell you what you want to know? Any one would of course choose the dictionary with the most to offer... No? Same thing with God v. god's. which are you willing to believe in? A God who can/will explain everything or a god that's can't explain everything? As you can probably tell, I choose the first. Why? Because I am not going to put my trust in an platform that is not firmly grounded and I am not going to put my trust in a god that is unsure if his/her capabilities or has to rely on another being to accomplish something. I put my trust in God because I KNOW He is God. There is NO question in my mind as to the contrary. And I gladly count everything I am and everything I have accomplished as lost for the joy of knowing I am secure in my faith. ^^

Question: Are any of you absolutely, 100% sure that God does not exist?

@ Fatboi:

Wars are not of God's doing, but of man's. You ask, "why does God let bad things happen?" or, "why doesn't God stop all wars?". My question is: "Why don't you?" God has the ability to stop wars and when He comes back for His Thousand Year Reign on earth He will enforce peace. However, until then He will allow free will to govern the lives of man. Man chooses to war so, God let's the wars take place and actually uses them to benefit man. Why doesn't God Stop wars? Because man does not WANT to stop warring. If God were to stop wars He would change His nature to let us govern ourselves and, as I've already stated, God is Immutable.

[sUnakO..]

well..i believe god exists!

[analogZero]

Actually, there are numerous Biblical occurrences in which God has proved Himself to be... well, God. He did this by standing up to to what the other god's followers were saying about their god.

That's not so much a godly free for all. I didn't see shiva multi-punch allah in the face while Jehova gave Odin a pile driver. That sounds more like a democratic election, that in order to prove your better, you simply sway the vote of the people rather than demonstrate the quality and quantity of your character versus another deity. In an election it's easy to make promises and give easy answers, but with our free will and devilish demeanour, it's difficult to deliver a promise. Miracles aside, It sounds like god sways opinion just as well as the devil does. so who's to worship in that case.
I can believe in no god just as strongly or surely as anyone can believe in one or many.

[Abarai]

I don't believe in god..hmm

i believe that a great spiritual power exists but it doesn't have to be a god!it might be mane gods and goddesses!(or fairies, who cares what does it looks like?!)

all those religions are invented by people who are afraid and because of that they want something to believe in, in order not to be afraid and talk to their god to help them!

[lee matsu]

...S*gh ... i was going to say something but eh ......

[Zaraki]

Actually, there are numerous Biblical occurrences in which God has proved Himself to be... well, God. He did this by standing up to to what the other god's followers were saying about their god. But you're right, this was shaping out to be a "my dad... your dad" type thing and just to put in my two cents on that topic; My God could/can/will beat your God at anything! ^^


Anyway, on to the real topic. The thing about humans, whether they be Christian or not, is that they tend to put the Almighty God in a box ( or try to make Him small enough to understand Him). This cannot happen... Ever. So to know if God is truly real or not you have to talk about what makes Him real. By this I mean His attributes. Only by discussing these will we not be tempted to "put Him in a box". Ok, here is a list of God's attributes:

God is: Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Sovereign, Eternal, Immutable, Righteous, Love, Just, Veracity; God is an All Consuming Fire, Truth, Faithful, Kind, Caring, Compassionate, Hope, Salvation, Long Suffering, Peace, Joy, Infinite, Self Proclaiming, The Beginning and The End; God is Life, and God is Forgiving. Those are just a few of the ones we know about! That's 28 + attributes that are only found in ONE God! So you say, "how can one God do everything?" That is explained in the first THREE of His attributes! Now I don;t know about you but I had a choice, like everyone else, whether or not to choose to follow a god/gods that either had to work together to accomplish anything or was still learning and a God that COULD do everything Himself AND already knew everything. It's like this, you have a student edition of The Websters Dictionary (as we all know a Student edition does not have every word in the english dictionary), but you have a question on a word not found in the Student Edition. What are you going to do? Are you going to continue using the dictionary that cannot tell you what you want to know or are you going to find the dictionary that will tell you what you want to know? Any one would of course choose the dictionary with the most to offer... No? Same thing with God v. god's. which are you willing to believe in? A God who can/will explain everything or a god that's can't explain everything? As you can probably tell, I choose the first. Why? Because I am not going to put my trust in an platform that is not firmly grounded and I am not going to put my trust in a god that is unsure if his/her capabilities or has to rely on another being to accomplish something. I put my trust in God because I KNOW He is God. There is NO question in my mind as to the contrary. And I gladly count everything I am and everything I have accomplished as lost for the joy of knowing I am secure in my faith. ^^

Question: Are any of you absolutely, 100% sure that God does not exist?

[B]@ Fatboi:

Wars are not of God's doing, but of man's. You ask, "why does God let bad things happen?" or, "why doesn't God stop all wars?". My question is: "Why don't you?" God has the ability to stop wars and when He comes back for His Thousand Year Reign on earth He will enforce peace. However, until then He will allow free will to govern the lives of man. Man chooses to war so, God let's the wars take place and actually uses them to benefit man. Why doesn't God Stop wars? Because man does not WANT to stop warring. If God were to stop wars He would change His nature to let us govern ourselves and, as I've already stated, God is Immutable.

you beat me to it. anyways i do believe in God. i fully agree what jessi has said.

[aezgaga]

That you belive in god or not change nothing in your life.... the only difference is that you saw banal thing like god is talking to you.... you put yourself restriction to obey him (okay i know I generalize a lot ... but I talk by experience..) personnally ... I found that just a pretext to make other people do what the society want to do.... to put ''someone'' witch is so powerful and creat everything and who will be there for you when you need help...

Okay I'm in a family witch is fully religious and ... anyway... The adam and eve thing look more than a story to make children sleep than something serious... God is the way to explain unknown thing without researching....

(my conversation with a godfreak)
-How this thing happen
-it's god
-That is non sense !!!
-god can do everything
-Okay so why those thing happen if god can stop it!
-Because he didn't have to
-Non sense !
-You are so far from the good right way ....
-ARRRG !

Anyway .... I think they're isn't one sin i've never did and it's more fun like that .... life will be so boring if it would be the way ''god'' wants to...

Anyway i'm not against god... I believe that many people would feel lonely without that ''someone'' to help them ^^ well anyway the god story is lame... If I have to believe in a god i'll believe in those god that they talk about in ancien greece :P those story are great with all those god ^^ I found that mythologie is more interesting that the lame bible..... anyway ^^ i'll live the fun way instead of the god way ¬¬

[leshinor]

Same thing with God v. god's. which are you willing to believe in? A God who can/will explain everything or a god that's can't explain everything? As you can probably tell, I choose the first. Why? Because I am not going to put my trust in an platform that is not firmly grounded and I am not going to put my trust in a god that is unsure if his/her capabilities or has to rely on another being to accomplish something.

Thank you JesiGash for explaining it so well! That's what I wanted to say but I guess it kind of looked like that dad thing everyone is talking about :oo:
I didn't mean to make it like that... maybe it is because it was 2am when I was arguing that :dead:
Anyway, I agree with you in all aspects!!!


That's not so much a godly free for all. I didn't see shiva multi-punch allah in the face while Jehova gave Odin a pile driver. That sounds more like a democratic election, that in order to prove your better, you simply sway the vote of the people rather than demonstrate the quality and quantity of your character versus another deity. In an election it's easy to make promises and give easy answers, but with our free will and devilish demeanour, it's difficult to deliver a promise. Miracles aside, It sounds like god sways opinion just as well as the devil does. so who's to worship in that case.
I can believe in no god just as strongly or surely as anyone can believe in one or many.

The Bible points the flaws of the other religions in a way to show that they are not right. To convince a person of smth, you need to first prove to him that what he believes is wrong and then convince him about your belief. That is what God does.
Now, comparing God to the Devil!?! The Devil tries to convince people by using lies and twisting the truth to his own benefit, NOT smth God does.


That you belive in god or not change nothing in your life.... the only difference is that you saw banal thing like god is talking to you.... you put yourself restriction to obey him (okay i know I generalize a lot ... but I talk by experience..) personnally ... I found that just a pretext to make other people do what the society want to do.... to put ''someone'' witch is so powerful and creat everything and who will be there for you when you need help...

Okay I'm in a family witch is fully religious and ... anyway... The adam and eve thing look more than a story to make children sleep than something serious... God is the way to explain unknown thing without researching....

(my conversation with a godfreak)
-How this thing happen
-it's god
-That is non sense !!!
-god can do everything
-Okay so why those thing happen if god can stop it!
-Because he didn't have to
-Non sense !
-You are so far from the good right way ....
-ARRRG !

Anyway .... I think they're isn't one sin i've never did and it's more fun like that .... life will be so boring if it would be the way ''god'' wants to...

Anyway i'm not against god... I believe that many people would feel lonely without that ''someone'' to help them ^^ well anyway the god story is lame... If I have to believe in a god i'll believe in those god that they talk about in ancien greece :P those story are great with all those god ^^ I found that mythologie is more interesting that the lame bible..... anyway ^^ i'll live the fun way instead of the god way ¬¬

Yay!!! Go go go Greek Gods! lol!
Well, ancient Greek gods are mythology. It is a very interesting idea but it doesn't really represent what we would call a God today. They are more like different kinds of persons and their stories have some deep meanings but that's as far as it goes. Besides, Greeks had begun seriously questioning the existence of the Olympians!!! When Apostle Paul came to preach about Christianity, they already had a shrine to the Almighty unknown God (kind of like the Christian one).

And life wouldn't be boring if it went as God wanted because we don't know what He wants. We are not intelligent enough to comprehend a perfect being's thoughts. Besides, I don't think life would be boring without wars, murders, etc!!!

[analogZero]

The Bible points the flaws of the other religions in a way to show that they are not right. To convince a person of smth, you need to first prove to him that what he believes is wrong and then convince him about your belief. That is what God does.
Now, comparing God to the Devil!?! The Devil tries to convince people by using lies and twisting the truth to his own benefit, NOT smth God does.


But that's nothing more than what I said, it's a matter of poking holes in the other guy's story, then slipping in parts of your story to fill the void. God isn't conquering another god, he's just stealing his voters away with easy answers and a nice smile. God can't control your belief, he left that for you to decide, right? In that case his word becomes no more valid than that of any other God. It's just a matter of whichever God has the most points wins. A pathetic divine popularity contest, where the highest popular vote wins. I can't imagine God's democratic, he ought to have better governing sense than that.

[cutieB]

yes God is real, there is earth, air , water, and fire, sunshine, all these thing just didnt pop up in thin air and i dont believe that a big bang created thses things so the only other explanation is God.

[Koopaking]

I'll tell you what I believe. I believe that there's several other threads debating this subject, but this particular thread is the most amusing. Funny how it came down to is there God and then to whether or not there's multiple gods, then branched out into some other stuff equally amusing I'm sure since I didn't bother to read everything.

I think that a god is whatever you decide it to be... Some decide to go with the masses and believe that God is an invisible man in the sky. Others come up with their own philosophies and if they can spread their philosophies around enough, a new religion is born.

Me? I like to think of myself as my own god. It's kind of cool that way.

[kokoro-ran]

ok ok may be he do and maybe he dont
some time i think that he dosent exist because of all the pain and injustice in this world and some time i do when i think about my mother that passed away a long time ago
but if you use logic you well see that humans belive in god cause they wont accepte an end for there lives they want to continue living so thats way they think there is a god that he criated an athore world *the world of spirits or dead* *heaven and hell*
so if they dont belive that there is a god *the athore life wont exist *

[leshinor]

ok ok may be he do and maybe he dont
some time i think that he dosent exist because of all the pain and injustice in this world and some time i do when i think about my mother that passed away a long time ago
but if you use logic you well see that humans belive in god cause they wont accepte an end for there lives they want to continue living so thats way they think there is a god that he criated an athore world *the world of spirits or dead* *heaven and hell*
so if they dont belive that there is a god *the athore life wont exist *

Well the afterlife is not necessarily impossible without a God but it is improbable. I agree that humans started religions in a way to describe what happened before, where did we come from, and to say what is going to happen after we die. However, it is not limited to that. As time passed, people made their own philosophies of why God exists that doesn't have to do of any miserable idea such as the fear of death; I am not saying fearing death is miserable just that someone would create a concept such as God merely to escape this fear is bad!

But that's nothing more than what I said, it's a matter of poking holes in the other guy's story, then slipping in parts of your story to fill the void. God isn't conquering another god, he's just stealing his voters away with easy answers and a nice smile. God can't control your belief, he left that for you to decide, right? In that case his word becomes no more valid than that of any other God. It's just a matter of whichever God has the most points wins. A pathetic divine popularity contest, where the highest popular vote wins. I can't imagine God's democratic, he ought to have better governing sense than that.

Just as I said before, you need to explain to another person that their belief is wrong before trying to convince them about your own belief.
But, I would like to ask JesiGash what did he mean by saying that God tried to prove himself by pointing the other religions' mistakes. Could you be a bit more specific?

[analogZero]

But that's just as easily done with rhetoric by means of exploitation. What you're talking about is what cults do to get new recruits. The only action God shows is miracles, that's the only means by which he communicates honestly to people. A person deconstructing another's beliefs can't be measured as an act of God, but it can be measured as an act of deception. The fact that they're left with no other option than your own is rather dishonest, don't you think?
I'd like to hear a revision from jesigash too, because this all seems to be a fog.

[Dark_Thorn]

I am a stong christian. So yes I believe that there is one and only one GOD. If there were more then one god we would have another Roman mythology on our hand, and if you follow there mythology thier god's were constantily fighting among themselves. We if that was the case and we did have more then one god we would so the damange of all the gods fighting for the supreme power.

[lewis2]

you can say what you want ok i thalk he does but if you do not that up to you ok no one know

[CryticX]

I'm not going to lie, I believe he exists...just because any other method of creation is not possible, afterlife, I'm not sure...I guess it's a believing thing, obviously I lack faith as others say. Kissing and sex? well lets just say one thing leads to another unless you have self control.

[Jello]

NO!!! if god did exist, he wouldn't let wars take place. I believe in the theory of evolution.

God doesnt create wars; we do. God gave us free will. He could stop it, sure, but only when the world is ready for his love. until then, we continue to sin and make the world worse. for us to be ready, we have to love more like God and not hurt other people, which is todays problem.

i too believe in the theory of evolution

[Stray_Pube]

I dont believe in a God or gods/goddesses, or a "higher power".

If I cannot use any of my five senses to detect something, then it doesnt exist. Plain and simple.

[leshinor]

I dont believe in a God or gods/goddesses, or a "higher power".

If I cannot use any of my five senses to detect something, then it doesnt exist. Plain and simple.

Another interesting question is whether you believe your five senses are able to describe the world as it is or are they restricting our minds by making a fake world? But that would get off topic I guess...

[soulten]

Another interesting question is whether you believe your five senses are able to describe the world as it is or are they restricting our minds by making a fake world? But that would get off topic I guess...

If our senses where restricting our minds to a fake world, wouldn't that fake world therefore be the world? And the so called world we are restricting be the fake?
I hope that makes sense.

[leshinor]

If our senses where restricting our minds to a fake world, wouldn't that fake world therefore be the world? And the so called world we are restricting be the fake?
I hope that makes sense.

Well, our five senses are used to perceive the world, they do not define our world. For example, if we consider the desert to be real then a hallucination that a person might have is not real. The world might be the desert but the hallucination might be the world we perceive with our senses! But that is getting a lot off topic and it is an idea that just occurred to me when reading wolf's argument.
So, back on topic, my opinion is that we shouldn't believe there is no God since none of our senses can perceive Him. I do not think they are that trustworthy...

[Kenshy]

No, God does not exist. There is not a higher existence, there isn't an afterlife, there isn't reincarnation, there is no such thing as souls; these are all made up by afraid, weak humans looking for some kind of hope to help them ease their fear of death. What awaits you when you die is eternal darkness, just like before you were born. To think there is an afterlife is absurd, to think there is a deity is even more foolish.

“A God who is not benevolent, not just, not wise, is no God.”
Ludwig Andreas von Feuerbach-- Das Wesen des Christentums.

[soulten]

Should this even be in the debate forum, the off-topic seems more suitable? We can not prove who is right or wrong, or if the entire subject that is being "debated" about exists as it is. All this is, is people bashing others' religious beliefs and faith.

[Xeohelios]

Arguments such as these tend to get redundant, no matter which side is proved right - the other one will still not let go of their beliefs.

Currently there are scientists trying to prove the Big Bang theory through the use of things such as the Hadron Collider. Now if this is proved to be the cause of the formation of the planets, the argument will turn to "Well, god 'caused the big bang."

[Ramrok]

LOOOL

i didnt think a thread as pointless as this existed here...

seriously... your (not addressed to anyone specific) debating with a bunch of youngsters and teenagers when in fact, both sides do not know enough to properly argue their side...

if you really want to speak to someone that knows what hes talking about... speak to a scientist and a church pastor or someone that actually knows how to best address your insecure questions... i personally know a christian scientist, so what does that tell you?!

its pointless arguing it here... but if you have nothing better to do, then carry on.

[tripletres]

God exists. There is no proof. There is no fact. We as human beings have no way to know. All we can say is our beliefs. I believe that God exists. Others believe in many gods or no gods. And that's fine. Because this topic is impossible to know for sure, it's alright for people to have their own opinions, and I'm not gonna shove my views down other's throats.

[Jello]

LOOOL

i didnt think a thread as pointless as this existed here...

seriously... your (not addressed to anyone specific) debating with a bunch of youngsters and teenagers when in fact, both sides do not know enough to properly argue their side...

if you really want to speak to someone that knows what hes talking about... speak to a scientist and a church pastor or someone that actually knows how to best address your insecure questions... i personally know a christian scientist, so what does that tell you?!

its pointless arguing it here... but if you have nothing better to do, then carry on.

i agree. this is all about belief. unless there is some missionary here who is really trying to get ppl to believe in God or not, this arguement is pointless. i say believe in what you believe in, and respect others beliefs. this thread is basically just letting ppl say what they believe in, nothing more. Sure, i believe in God. Im not saying you have to. but this debate is getting kind of rediculous, i think.

[leshinor]

LOOOL

i didnt think a thread as pointless as this existed here...

seriously... your (not addressed to anyone specific) debating with a bunch of youngsters and teenagers when in fact, both sides do not know enough to properly argue their side...

if you really want to speak to someone that knows what hes talking about... speak to a scientist and a church pastor or someone that actually knows how to best address your insecure questions... i personally know a christian scientist, so what does that tell you?!

its pointless arguing it here... but if you have nothing better to do, then carry on.

Well, it is still better to try and debate than just say that our knowledge is limited so drop it right?

Should this even be in the debate forum, the off-topic seems more suitable? We can not prove who is right or wrong, or if the entire subject that is being "debated" about exists as it is. All this is, is people bashing others' religious beliefs and faith.

Well, it is not really a debate so I guess it should be moved to the off-topic lounge or even better to the mentality symposium! That last section has no threads at all!!! Don't know why though...

[Ramrok]

lol leshinor... you reply to me saying you want to debate, you reply to soulten saying it isnt really a debate...

the last thread is password locked i think...

[analogZero]

lol leshinor... you reply to me saying you want to debate, you reply to soulten saying it isnt really a debate...

the last thread is password locked i think...

that and it doesn't exist...fog rolls in

[bloodgurl8]

I believe in him, but I'm not going to try and make people believe in him. That is their own choice. So yeah, I'll just say I believe. :D

[Ryuuzaki]

This is only, what, the fourth thread made about God?

As I've said many times before, I don't believe in him. Not at all. Never have, never will. However, since I have no proof he doesn't exist, I wont try and make people believe he doesn't exist. Same thing if I did believe in him -- I wouldn't try to make people believe because I don't have any proof, other then a book, which was probably written by some drunk to saw things. This debate will never end, either. There will be no winner of the debate, since not everyone will be able to agree on the same thing as everyone else.

[Ramrok]

being christian isnt simply believing in god... the devil believes in god, the devil knows that god is all powerfull, the devil probably knows the bible better then any of us... thats why he knows hows to push ur buttons to turn u away from god... simply believing is not enough... being christian is trying to be like christ... living your life by his example, by his teachings... trying to represent him thru your way of life... its hard for just about everybody to do that... but asking him to help you, to guide you on the right path, make the right decisions and accepting him in your daily life is what its all about... anyway, i dont wanna sound like a preacher... im just giving my 2 cents. :D

[Russkie]

O so in your religion what do you believe I believe in god but in my religion i am not able to kiss nor have sexual intercourse with the opposite sex until i am married.

I know I'm a little late... but... MORMON!

*Hiss*

[Ryuuzaki]

being christian isnt simply believing in god... the devil believes in god, the devil knows that god is all powerfull, the devil probably knows the bible better then any of us... thats why he knows hows to push ur buttons to turn u away from god... simply believing is not enough... being christian is trying to be like christ... living your life by his example, by his teachings... trying to represent him thru your way of life... its hard for just about everybody to do that... but asking him to help you, to guide you on the right path, make the right decisions and accepting him in your daily life is what its all about... anyway, i dont wanna sound like a preacher... im just giving my 2 cents. :D

Try and be like God? So in other words, it's a bunch of fan-boys and fan-girls thinking they can be someone they can't, then believing in something that cannot ever save them like they are brainwashed to believe. Saying that Satan believes in God is assuming there is such a thing as Satan. Personally, I don't believe in that either, so eh. "but asking him to help you, to guide you on the right path, make the right decisions" Oh! So, Christianity is sounding more and more like a program for people who are unable to do things on there own and need some old guy to say that the lord will guide you, so they believe it, then ask this all powerful magical force to tell them what to do and so on. That sounds even worse then not believing in god at all, then following "the path of chaos and destruction".

[Dolly]

Maybe so maybe no. I'd like to say I don't believe in him--but I was raised into doing just the opposite. I can't help but whisper a little "Thanks" every time something lucky happens to me, maybe compliment him on giving me a nice day or setting, you know?

The thing that bites me the most is the large scale of contradictions and poor judgement choices mentioned all over the Bible. Also, religion as a whole has caused more violence in the world than anything. Do I mean that people have it in their mind that they're doing it for god? No, but it's used as a facade. While I can't really "blame" religion for people's wickedness--it's just getting to a point where enough is enough. The truth is, religion is just a reason to hate a guy.

[Ramrok]

no its not to be like god... its to follow christs teachings and guides... asking to know the right choice is not the same as choosing it... its each individuals choice to follow whatever path they want... as a christian, i try to ask god to show me the right choices... and then it is my choice to follow it... noones being forced into anything... its not about rules and regulations... god also shows you ways you can live a rich and meaningful life... for some people its actual common good morale, others who are not sure how to approach certain problems in their life ask for guidance.

i dont see any contradictions or poor judgement choices in the Bible... mayb you care to mention those the next time u go to church... i too was burn in a Christian family, and while i was young i had little choice not to attend, but as i grew older i had my doubts cleared and my questions answered...

write your questions down on paper and ask a pastor... im sure you'll get an answer for each and every one... i personally cant accept that im sum monkey's ancestor... while there are still monkeys around, lol... clearly if they were our predecessors, they should be entitled to humanitarian rights and not get shoved up rockets and sent in space or whatever they like experimenting on these days... i know i wouldnt do that to my relative, even if hes not bright.

[maan]

i do believe that there's God and i worship and praise HIM..poor people who didn't believe in real creature.

[soulten]

This should be closed, it goes nowhere.
We got people who have no proof he does exist, and those of use who have no proof he doesn't exist.

Religion is just who has the best imaginary friend.

[leshinor]

Hahah! Yes, I was contradicting myself! I meant that I wanted to discuss about it even though we might never get to a satisfactory answer.

@Ryuu: it's not brainwashing. It is like school! You don't expect everyone to come up with the quantum formula when they get 17 or whatever. We are being taught how we came up with the formula, but whether we believe in it or not is our choice. Same with God. He might be giving us some guidance but He is surely not forcing us to believe in something. Besides, God wants us to be moral and all. It's not like a really nice person that doesn't believe in God will go to Hell!!!

@Dolly: just because ppl used religion to hate others doesn't mean that this is the original purpose of religion!

@Soulten: I don't think this thread should be closed! Even though there are not many strong arguments doesn't mean there aren't any at all. Besides, it is a nice topic to think about! Similar topics made me start reading the Bible and thinking more about God.

[Dolly]

Hahah! Yes, I was contradicting myself! I meant that I wanted to discuss about it even though we might never get to a satisfactory answer.



@Dolly: just because ppl used religion to hate others doesn't mean that this is the original purpose of religion!



Of course it wasn't. But the matter of fact is, human nature is often flawed--I think that religion was made by humanity (not saying that there isn't a God) for good purposes--but in the end, they just couldn't have had the foresight on effects.

And there pretty much is proof that God doesn't exist...there's a lot of things in the Bible that raises some historical eyebrows.

[leshinor]

Of course it wasn't. But the matter of fact is, human nature is often flawed--I think that religion was made by humanity (not saying that there isn't a God) for good purposes--but in the end, they just couldn't have had the foresight on effects.

And there pretty much is proof that God doesn't exist...there's a lot of things in the Bible that raises some historical eyebrows.

Well, actually, I believe that atheists don't need any proof that there is no God. It is the religious people that need to provide evidence that there is such a being as God.

[Zaraki]

funny thing was a few nights ago on i think national geographic that noah's ark was discovered. now i didn't watch the rest of it so don't know if they "disproved" it as being the ark.

[blood zero]

he doesnt exist theres no proof

[revwest]

he doesnt exist theres no proof

Fine, no proof. Challenge you to create man from earthen soil.. BUT you must create your own soil first. Get back to me when you work out matter out of nothing theory.

[leshinor]

he doesnt exist theres no proof

You can't say for sure that He doesn't exist because there is not any eral proof until now. True that you proof to say that He is real but then you cannot really deny by saying that you have not seen or experienced him in any way.

[Ramrok]

theres plenty of proof that certain things in the bible actually happened... google it, it isnt hard to find it at all... you just have to be open to that idea and not shut everything off that may disrupt your favoured lifestyle... and if some things havent been proven, it doesnt mean its false... it may yet to be discovered or proven.

[leshinor]

theres plenty of proof that certain things in the bible actually happened... google it, it isnt hard to find it at all... you just have to be open to that idea and not shut everything off that may disrupt your favoured lifestyle... and if some things havent been proven, it doesnt mean its false... it may yet to be discovered or proven.

Yes, that is what I mean. If we have no proof for certain things now, it doesn't mean that they are wrong. So, we cannot absolutely deny smth by saying there is no proof so it doesn't exist...

[BoneTosser]

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

[Dolly]

Well, actually, I believe that atheists don't need any proof that there is no God. It is the religious people that need to provide evidence that there is such a being as God.

I wasn't talking about atheists only. It isn't usually so simple to categorize someone as "religious" or "atheist". People have every right to look for proof--it's human nature to find reason in something. Religion often uses the argument of "faith". People go so far as to say proof against religion is placed by God himself to test the faith of his children.

But as has been mentioned, how can we really know? I don't know about you, but I'll side with reason over faith.

[mellowguy]

I've seen more than a few complaints that this thread goes nowhere, so I'm going to put a personal directive out there. I believe in one higher power, so I'm going to try to convince someone else that one exists. It may prove impossible, what with the personal beliefs being far more important than a simple forum thread, but the discussion will be far more important than the outcome, I think.

First, I must point something out; to quote an alien named Ziltoid (fictional): " I am so omnipotent, if there were two of me, I would be both." Comical yes, but his statement is pretty accurate. I'm defining a god as one with limitless power, although I suppose that is as open for debate as anything I say. Thus, if there were multiple gods as in wiccan/norse/greek/roman mythology, then they would all be one anyway. Different sides of the same die (though I guess that we would need a die with far more than six sides)

For full disclosure, I'm Jewish.

Which brings me to my second prerequisite: organized religion is a no-no here. All organized religion does is lay down human laws of what people think we're supposed to do, and what people think actually happened. To describe a being of infinity, we can't think along the bounds of humanity. This point has already been brought up, but it's worth restating.

Since I don't really want to type much more tonight, could someone bring up some reasons why god can't exist? I could respond to those before trying to prove my own theories.

I feel like I'm getting in over my head, but then again, that's also how I learned to swim.

[revwest]

ברוך אתה ה' א‑לוהינו מלך העולם, שהחינו וקימנו והגענו לזמן הזה.‏
Barukh atah Adonai Eloheinu melekh ha‑olam, she‑hehiyanu v'kiy'manu v'higi'anu la‑z'man ha‑ze.

(if it posts right)

[mellowguy]

It did post right, but it's a little out of place. Passover's next week though, you could say it then. It was lucky I remembered that one, because I'm not that observant. I go to temple when I have an opportunity, but that's not often.

That's off topic though, I really would like some reasons why god can't exist.

[revwest]

god can't exist be cause god(s) are made up by man. God can exist because he does. (Note g v/s G)

Reason he does not exist in some one's mind is personal choice to be atheist or otherwise due to environment or conditioning. A persons inability to recognize that humans are not the top of the food chain.
-=My opinion, don't shoot the messenger=-

[analogZero]

god can't exist be cause god(s) are made up by man. God can exist because he does. (Note g v/s G)

Reason he does not exist in some one's mind is personal choice to be atheist or otherwise due to environment or conditioning. A persons inability to recognize that humans are not the top of the food chain.
-=My opinion, don't shoot the messenger=-

Though a touch philisophical, this is a rather brilliant answer. God requires exposure, and without it God doesn't exist. God's the sound of a tree falling in the woods so to say. Take missionaries for example, who spread the word of God on to people who've never heard of God. To those they're speaking, that God has never existed, but has the potential to exist so long as they accept God as an actuality. Otherwise God is something else or nothing at all.
Unfortunately it leads to an endless circle of personal belief, but if you were to tell, say, a native of secluded part of the world that God loves him, he may turn around and say God loves you too. But who's to say they speak of the same God. To each, the other God is nothing more than a ficticious entity until one overpowers the rule of the other. One God is destroyed, ceasing to exist, the other survives to spread...like a virus...or soft butter, cuz soft butter sounds better.

edit: There's actually an end to the cycle stated above. Grant a person no knowledge of God, as the endless cycle above would. That person, when introduced to god (be it through someone else or their own epiphany) is presented with a choice. Their choice must be based on one of two things. a) this person acknowledges that something there's something greater, wiser, blahblahblaher than them. b) they're master of their domain. At this point there's no harm, for as mentioned above God doesn't exist until he is acknowledged. The person's decision has to be based on something, for they wouldn't just randomly choose a side and decide to role with it. The person would have to exhibit a bias. They would have to sway favour to either themself as a master or themself as a follower. The choice of God's existence is therefore nothing more than a biased decision created in the individual based on their security or insecurity with their own existence. Thus God is no longer an entity so much as a yes or a no.
with this, this discussion becomes otiose. Regardless of argument, data, proof or determination to sway the belief of others, the question of the thread remains what it is in the poll. yes or no. a simple biased choice.
Unless someone can prove that otherwise, I bid you all good day. There's nothing more to say.
(editted after the post that follows, of course. haha)

[Memorix]

Why has this suddenly became a huge arguement over someone that no one can see or hear and probably doesn't exist?! :oo: :dizzy: :scaried:

[revwest]

Why has this suddenly became a huge arguement over someone that no one can see or hear and probably doesn't exist?! :oo: :dizzy: :scaried:

Interesting. Nothing sudden about it. Homosapiens had been debating this for long long time. It something called free will or free choice. You can choose not to believe. Lack of belief does not make one right.

[leerock89]

I still say hes really a she from the 293rd dimension.

[Ramrok]

well a friend told me that wether he fully believes god is real or not... he plans to follow his teachings to the fullest anyways... because he said he had nothing to loose when he died if he had a good life and died...

personally i dont like the way he was thinking but it made me think... my belief in god and living my life thru his teachings and guidance has led me to a pretty good life so far... if i die and go to heaven, then id be eternally gratefull... if for some reason a god doesnt exist... well i've lived a good life... but if such an atheist lives what he would say a good life, and dies and realizes that there is a god... well tough luck... you might think 60-70 of your "good life" was worth it... but living an eternity in hell... well lets just say 100 years of pain, over the course of eternity, will probably only feel like a minute.

personally i dont want to think of it that way... but if my life is good while following god... that's where id say the saying "having your cake and eating it too" would come from. ^_^

[Dolly]

I've seen more than a few complaints that this thread goes nowhere, so I'm going to put a personal directive out there. I believe in one higher power, so I'm going to try to convince someone else that one exists. It may prove impossible, what with the personal beliefs being far more important than a simple forum thread, but the discussion will be far more important than the outcome, I think.

First, I must point something out; to quote an alien named Ziltoid (fictional): " I am so omnipotent, if there were two of me, I would be both." Comical yes, but his statement is pretty accurate. I'm defining a god as one with limitless power, although I suppose that is as open for debate as anything I say. Thus, if there were multiple gods as in wiccan/norse/greek/roman mythology, then they would all be one anyway. Different sides of the same die (though I guess that we would need a die with far more than six sides)

For full disclosure, I'm Jewish.

Which brings me to my second prerequisite: organized religion is a no-no here. All organized religion does is lay down human laws of what people think we're supposed to do, and what people think actually happened. To describe a being of infinity, we can't think along the bounds of humanity. This point has already been brought up, but it's worth restating.

Since I don't really want to type much more tonight, could someone bring up some reasons why god can't exist? I could respond to those before trying to prove my own theories.

I feel like I'm getting in over my head, but then again, that's also how I learned to swim.

Well, at least we agree on organized religion.

[animex09]

what does it matter. its up to you if you want it to exist or not.

[analogZero]

Does the idea of living a good life scare you that much? That someone might be able to do it without God being their best pal? Living a good life is not restricted to those who follow a religious path. So long as I live accordingly, and acknowledge my mistakes and misdoings in my life I can die without regret of what I've done. This is no different than if I were to follow a life under the shade of religion. The only difference is that I'm punished and you're not because of my beliefs. This is something man has a law for, but God can't seem to wrap his head around. In this context, to God, discrimination is a virtue and mercy is a sin. I'll gladly accept any sentence if it means I've lead a life as free and enriching as one can be, for there's a difference between a perfect life under God and one without. God becomes a limitation.

[leoern]

i think hes real even though if he does im probably goin to hell...and dont worry about any bible beater telling you your religion is wrong

[leshinor]

Though a touch philisophical, this is a rather brilliant answer. God requires exposure, and without it God doesn't exist. God's the sound of a tree falling in the woods so to say. Take missionaries for example, who spread the word of God on to people who've never heard of God. To those they're speaking, that God has never existed, but has the potential to exist so long as they accept God as an actuality. Otherwise God is something else or nothing at all.
Unfortunately it leads to an endless circle of personal belief, but if you were to tell, say, a native of secluded part of the world that God loves him, he may turn around and say God loves you too. But who's to say they speak of the same God. To each, the other God is nothing more than a ficticious entity until one overpowers the rule of the other. One God is destroyed, ceasing to exist, the other survives to spread...like a virus...or soft butter, cuz soft butter sounds better.

edit: There's actually an end to the cycle stated above. Grant a person no knowledge of God, as the endless cycle above would. That person, when introduced to god (be it through someone else or their own epiphany) is presented with a choice. Their choice must be based on one of two things. a) this person acknowledges that something there's something greater, wiser, blahblahblaher than them. b) they're master of their domain. At this point there's no harm, for as mentioned above God doesn't exist until he is acknowledged. The person's decision has to be based on something, for they wouldn't just randomly choose a side and decide to role with it. The person would have to exhibit a bias. They would have to sway favour to either themself as a master or themself as a follower. The choice of God's existence is therefore nothing more than a biased decision created in the individual based on their security or insecurity with their own existence. Thus God is no longer an entity so much as a yes or a no.
with this, this discussion becomes otiose. Regardless of argument, data, proof or determination to sway the belief of others, the question of the thread remains what it is in the poll. yes or no. a simple biased choice.
Unless someone can prove that otherwise, I bid you all good day. There's nothing more to say.
(editted after the post that follows, of course. haha)

You could say that God exists as an idea, because we create him with our imagination and belief but I do not think it is so. I believe that God exists no matter what we think. For example, before I subscribed to this site you did not know of my existence. Does this mean I did not exist? Even if everyone forgets about me, I will still exist. Same way with God. Even if no one believes in Him, He will still exist!

[analogZero]

You could say that God exists as an idea, because we create him with our imagination and belief but I do not think it is so. I believe that God exists no matter what we think. For example, before I subscribed to this site you did not know of my existence. Does this mean I did not exist? Even if everyone forgets about me, I will still exist. Same way with God. Even if no one believes in Him, He will still exist!

Take the argument of a tree falling in the woods. certainly the tree creates audible vibrations, but it requires the perception and analysis of those vibrations to recognize it as sound. Without this perception and analysis it's easy to say that all things are essentially equal to zero until we are exposed to them. Reality demands interaction, and without the interaction with God, God bears no existence, moreso than you can equate from anyone else you've yet to meet. The phrase of "God is everything and nothing" is reduced to "god is nothing" for God requires our interaction in order to exist. In other words If he's real, his existence is dependent on us. So then, is reality what is real, or is what could be reality real? One's an absolute, one isn't. Both are simple yes and no choices.

[leshinor]

Take the argument of a tree falling in the woods. certainly the tree creates audible vibrations, but it requires the perception and analysis of those vibrations to recognize it as sound. Without this perception and analysis it's easy to say that all things are essentially equal to zero until we are exposed to them. Reality demands interaction, and without the interaction with God, God bears no existence, moreso than you can equate from anyone else you've yet to meet. The phrase of "God is everything and nothing" is reduced to "god is nothing" for God requires our interaction in order to exist. In other words If he's real, his existence is dependent on us. So then, is reality what is real, or is what could be reality real? One's an absolute, one isn't. Both are simple yes and no choices.

The tree will still fall and will cause other things to happen even if we might not be able to perceive it.
However, you could argue that nothing is there as long as nobody perceives it. So, you are questioning the definition of existence itself.

[Memorix]

Either you belive in god or you don't there's no need to actually get so worked up about it that you feel the need to make everyone else believe the some thing that you do. End of story...

[Ramrok]

analogZero, alot of people wont recognize the act of god happening before them as an act of god... the same you could say about your example with the trees... alot of people may have heard the tree fall but not think it was a tree or not pay any attention to it... religious missionaries try to make it their goal to spread the awareness of god... the games, anime and the media of these days have somewhat made it seem stale and it may not neccessarily have the same impact it used to...

but wether you hear the sound of the tree falling or not, it does not mean it didnt fall... the echoes of the forest may change the sound to seem like something else, but it is still the tree falling... and im sure the tree didnt fall just once... i wonder how many times you turned your back to the sound or mistaken it for something else.

[mellowguy]

We need interaction for truth, because the proof for everything is in our senses and our interpretation of them. For god to be proven to exist, we need to interact with him/her/it. However, I don't think all of us need to interact with god for it to exist. If we take apply the powers and properties of god to one person interacting with it, the god of that one is also the god of everything. As long as one person on this earth believes they have observed god, then god exists for everyone.

Put it this way.
Truth is just what you believe to be true, correct? I believe the t.v. in front of me is turned off, but that's just a convenient answer, for someone could have put my brain in a vat and been manipulating the electrodes to form the world around me (not technologically possible, but you get the idea). So, if you believe something to be true, it is true, unless proven otherwise. Thus:
One man believes he has interacted with god in some way, a sighting, a vision, a wrestling competition, whatever. His belief is his truth, his truth now is that god exists.
What are some of the properties of god? He is, as I said before, all powerful, pervading everything and everyone. Thus, through the viewpoint of the man who saw god, god exists for everyone. That is truth. As long as one person believes in god, he exists for all of us, no matter what we as individuals think. Even for atheists- if they believe that god does not exist, then that is their truth. However, unlike the man who saw god's truth, their truth is not all powerful and omniscient. Their null-god cannot descend on everyone and make there be no god, because it is not an actual force.

[BoneTosser]

This tread is looking more like a debate of Schrödinger's cat, than a debate of gods' existence. For those that don't know what I mean by Schrödinger's cat, Look here--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat <--

[analogZero]

The act of the tree falling isn't God, the sound is. Surely we all exist, because we say so regardless of logical evidence. You could say from what I stated that I have faith in there being no God.. But then faith is a silly thing, isn't it.
I merely wished to point out that belief in god requires resolution in infinity being somewhere in a non perceivable context rather than right in front of you. I choose an infinity before me, a religious follower believes in one that hides itself from them. so who's in the dark?

[Ramrok]

i know wut ur saying... but wut im telling you is that God doesnt show himself just once... thru missionaries that try to spread the word of God... more people will hear his voice, his teachings... more people will question it, will have their questioned answered and will in a sense 'hear the sound of the falling tree'... what i was saying is that in your example of the sound of the falling tree not reaching the ears of people... the sound doesnt only come once... while in fact i agree, some people have not heard his sound... or newborn infants or kids have not understood it...

in the afterlife, you will be judged based on your exposure to 'that sound of the falling tree'... and the people that have never heard God, his message, his teachings... they will be judged fairly in accordance to that... but the people that decline his teachings, and deliberately turn their back to God after hearing his message... they will be judged accordingly as well.

now i dont consider myself a missionary in any way... but thru todays media, newpaper, internet... you can confirm that majority of the population have in some sense heard him, some maybe not yet... but i can tell you that those people here that have read this thread or the other thread about 'does the Bible exist?' which is quite similar to this, have in fact been subject to hearing his message... some might even have questions they want answered, some dont care and just go on, some try to make some excuse in their head not to take it seriously and move on... but the fact remains, that thru this debate, you have heard of God and of his message so it is now ur decision wether to turn ur back or follow thru and ask more questions, postpone the thought of this subject, or further pursue to answer your questions, or quench your curiosity, or clear your self consciousness.

while we may still be continuing this debate further on... regardless of what the result might be... those that have been reading or participating in these threads are now self conscious, and you now have no excuse to make excuses that you have not heard of God or his message. :D

if you want to continue to debate this then im all for it, i didnt really want to at first, but since im bored then im curious to see wut comments u guys have... i think its safe to say i've answered your questions fairly well, if there are some that i dont know off then ill ask my pastor for you... i cant say i know everything, but as you can see, im pretty solid so im not gonna crumble under pressure either. i've never felt confident enuff to debate something like this, but so far i think i've boosted my self confidence to follow thru.

[BoneTosser]

Just to play 'devils advocate' I ask this question. With out quoting any verse from the bible, or any author or expert that does quote the bible, Who is to say that your god is the real god and you have not been deceived and follow a false god?

[leshinor]

The act of the tree falling isn't God, the sound is. Surely we all exist, because we say so regardless of logical evidence. You could say from what I stated that I have faith in there being no God.. But then faith is a silly thing, isn't it.
I merely wished to point out that belief in god requires resolution in infinity being somewhere in a non perceivable context rather than right in front of you. I choose an infinity before me, a religious follower believes in one that hides itself from them. so who's in the dark?

If the sound is God then what is the tree? I thought it was the tree that was God and the sound being our perception of God.
I don't think faith is a silly thing. We must accept that even if our ability to reason is remarkable compared to the other living beings we know of, we have a long way to go still! So, faith is required sometimes for the things we cannot fully grasp. Faith is like hope. Without hope we wouldn't be able to survive. It might be ironic that we have to rely on such things so you might consider it silly but still it is necessary.

Just to play 'devils advocate' I ask this question. With out quoting any verse from the bible, or any author or expert that does quote the bible, Who is to say that your god is the real god and you have not been deceived and follow a false god?

Damn you Tosser! A question that is always troubling me!!! Why did you have to point this out! lol!
Well, I don't know. I haven't studied any other religions except from Christianity. What I believe is that there is no perfect religion. They all lack in something. So, I want to research and find which religion suits me best. I must say though that I find Christianity to have some good points!

[kairine:))]

i don't know what you guys are taLkin' too Lazy for me to read th0se etc.
but for me.. i don't care what your belief. or whatsoever.. but me?
for me.. THERE'S A GOD. AND HE EXIST.. :) no doubt about it.
i have faith in him. :)

[BoneTosser]

Damn you Tosser! A question that is always troubling me!!! Why did you have to point this out! lol!
Well, I don't know. I haven't studied any other religions except from Christianity. What I believe is that there is no perfect religion. They all lack in something. So, I want to research and find which religion suits me best. I must say though that I find Christianity to have some good points!

I do have to apologize, I directed my question at too narrow an audience. I should have asked 'with out falling back on the holy books or teachings of your faith, how do you know that your faith is the true faith?

That said, leshinor, this is the question that made me want to study religions and faiths from around the world as well.

[cutieB]

i don't know what you guys are taLkin' too Lazy for me to read th0se etc.
but for me.. i don't care what your belief. or whatsoever.. but me?
for me.. THERE'S A GOD. AND HE EXIST.. :) no doubt about it.
i have faith in him. :)

I agree with you 1000% there is a God and he does exist.

[Ramrok]

BoneTosser

faith is what makes the religion, aside from that... historic events and archeological findings have provided us proof that certain things in the bible did occur, this only strengthens our belief but i guarantee you that most people today, dont need such discoveries to believe in him.

[mellowguy]

@BoneTosser

My concept of god that I've formed is one that, as I've said, is all gods at the same time. Different faces of the same many-sided die. As long as a god exists, we all are worshiping the same god.

@AnalogZero
I don't see how you can put infinity right in front of you. It's unquantifiable by humans- we simply cannot perceive the real value of such a thing, for that value would be finite, and by definition incorrect. Thus, a god of infinite power could exist without us ever having to believe in it. Once god is there by way contact/believed contact with one, it's there for good.

[analogZero]

@ leshinor
If the tree is beyond God, then what's the soil from which the tree dies and returns to? what is the air it breathes, and what are the other trees that make up the forest? God simply existing for all time is about as ridiculous as the universe suddenly exploding into existence. Apples and oranges.

as for faith being silly, that seems to be a case of tone lost in text. A person's faith in God's existence or lack thereof comes off as a ludicrous approach if you look at them from two different yet convincing perspectives.

@ mellow
I have to agree with you in regards to the point you make to BT's comments. I find that ignorance of other religions in favour of your own leads to deprevation. There's near endless information written about life and it's purpose, but most people find one religion and they stick to it like they're betting on a horse.

in regards to the infinity thing. It is indeed an unfathomable thing to cradle and you're right, it won't take a finite form (sorry jesus). Infinity is endless, and I am not. This is of course theoretical. I can say that my ability to become one with infinity is as probable as becoming one with God (fair enough?). If you reject infinity then you must reject the possibility of an almighty God.
Though an infinity may be in front of me, it doesn't mean I can take it all in. I'd likely explode in the general area of the brain, wouldn't I? What it means is that infinity is there...right...there. Should you be able to perceive it, then kudos to you. All the tools are there to find it and become one with it. You may or may not have to leave your hometown to do so...I can't say.
The only thing I ask in saying this is that you don't try to label infinity, that you don't try to append rules and regulations, and dictate it. The infinite is more than what can be written in the largest book and greater than what can be taught by the wisest of sages. It's negative, it's positive, it's endless and it's zero. It has no dimension and wreaks of chaos (and even chaos can be calculated). It can't be reached for comment and isn't going to call out to you. It is an array of knowledge and thought, it is the perception of all things, it is the experience taken from this perception and the wisdom with which those things bring and even beyond that is something infinite, something more pure than judgment.
sounds like something someone of a religious nature would say, but there's nothing religious about it. It's an infinite reality there for the taking.

[mellowguy]

That is fair enough for me. Infinity is religion for me anyway: I'm a math major.

[LianaV]

I DO believe there is a God. and I don't classify myself in a 'religion' since religion can be something you follow devoutly whether it be an omnipotent being or a new anime series. I call myself a "Christ Follower" which means I follow the teaching in the Bible. The thing about God, is that you have to have FAITH. It's not something that can be proven by science, Christ even said that you must have FAITH, which is really hard. A lot of people don't follow God because 'life happens' or bad things happen. What I have learned is that whatever you are going through, no matter how dark it may seem, you can always get through it...you simply have to ask God for help and believe that he will help you. You have to remember that you won't always get what you want, but what you NEED...which is really hard to comphrehend. The Bible says that one must have the mind of a child in order to follow God's teachings the best, only because children do what they are told and trust completely. You also have to remember that God is a forgiving God, if you truely wish to change God will help you, do not be too afraid to ask for He loves you all, no matter what people say, no matter what the voice in the back of your head says. Remember even the devil 'believes' there is a God, it's a matter of how you live your life. I'm not trying to scare anyone but it's hard...there is sooo much I want to say yet can't. If you have any questions I will help as best I can, I won't tell anyone what you say or ask, and despite what you are thinking...I won't judge I too have had my share of downfalls, embarresments, and troubles. Yet I know God loves me and loves you too.

"God makes people right with himself through their faith in Jesus Christ. This is true for all who believe in Christ, because all people are the same: All have sinned and are not good evough for God's glory, and all need to be made right with God by His grace, which is a free gift. They need to be made free from sin through Jesus Christ."
-Romans 3:22-24

[mellowguy]

LianaV, please don't open the can of worms that is organized religion.

By the way, happy Passover everyone.

[LianaV]

Just to play 'devils advocate' I ask this question. With out quoting any verse from the bible, or any author or expert that does quote the bible, Who is to say that your god is the real god and you have not been deceived and follow a false god?

My God, the Father of Jesus Christ, is the true God because His teachings are the only teachings trying to be disproved. Why not Ghandi, Buddah, Mohammud, or Confucious, because theirs isn't the truth. The only way to be saved is through Jesus Christ, plain and simple...yet the devil is trying to take that from eveyone and make everyone miserable by giving people ideas on how to disprove my God. I'm going to attach a link to a video about a Professor who was a profound atheist, a Christian boy, and a miracle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piuoGb-Nhfw

[Ryuuzaki]

My God, the Father of Jesus Christ, is the true God because His teachings are the only teachings trying to be disproved. Why not Ghandi, Buddah, Mohammud, or Confucious, because theirs isn't the truth. The only way to be saved is through Jesus Christ, plain and simple...yet the devil is trying to take that from eveyone and make everyone miserable by giving people ideas on how to disprove my God. I'm going to attach a link to a video about a Professor who was a profound atheist, a Christian boy, and a miracle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piuoGb-Nhfw

See, this is where I start getting pissed at Christians and start beating the living shit out of them. I'm all cool with the different religions and such, but when they say that everything else is false, fake, and untruthful, then I start to get a little irritated. My main reason being, is because everyone believes in whatever they want. You little Jesus and God fan boys and girls don't have one single right to say that other teachings and such aren't true.

To end this tiny rant, fuck you uber-Christan.

[LianaV]

See, this is where I start getting pissed at Christians and start beating the living shit out of them. I'm all cool with the different religions and such, but when they say that everything else is false, fake, and untruthful, then I start to get a little irritated. My main reason being, is because everyone believes in whatever they want. You little Jesus and God fan boys and girls don't have one single right to say that other teachings and such aren't true.

To end this tiny rant, fuck you uber-Christan.

I'm sorry if I offended you, but I won't lie to you either. Please don't hate me for saying what I believe is the truth...I probably could have worded it better, i should have thought of others feelings and their sensitivity to certain things, but I honestly didn't think people would mind, it is a thread about God in an anime forum. But please forgive me, that wasn't my intention at all.

[Ramrok]

LianaV, theres nothing u need to appologize for... Ryuu tends to get verbal when he gets hot around the colar...

the people who arent Christians, or specifically Atheist and have no religion, are foolish to think were ignorant because we dont give other religions the same respect.

i dont look at other religions as in you believe in what you want and i believe in what i want and every1 believes in what they want... its not like every1 has their own favorite color, every1 votes for their favorite president and so forth... to us its not like pick your favorite religion, which one looks nice, which god do you like more blah blah... there is only one and only God to us... distractions, obstructions and believing in other gods or religions is only a form of the devil trying to keep you away from the real God and steer you off course... its not like you believe in what you want and its all good, wishy washy... its more like, you believe in the wrong thing... the devil has steered you from the right course and your going to hell. bam!

now dont get me wrong... i dont dislike the people that are atheists or that believe in other religions, i just dislike their choice... the choice they have made to be lured off course, to ignore and turn their backs and that is the choice i will not respect.

if you have another religion... guess what, i might like you as a person... but your going to hell. i know... its harsh, truth can be that harsh.

[BoneTosser]

BoneTosser

faith is what makes the religion, aside from that... historic events and archeological findings have provided us proof that certain things in the bible did occur, this only strengthens our belief but i guarantee you that most people today, dont need such discoveries to believe in him.

Just because evidence of certain things is found, does not make all of them true.

@BoneTosser

My concept of god that I've formed is one that, as I've said, is all gods at the same time. Different faces of the same many-sided die. As long as a god exists, we all are worshiping the same god.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it sounds like you have come to a similar conclusion as me concerning the nature of god. When god feels like talking to humans, god acts according to the beliefs of the person spoken to.

LianaV, You haven't noticed that other religions are attacked in the same way as Christianity because you are not a member of those faiths. Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and Buddhist all have to deal with people trying to undermine their beliefs just as you do.

Ramrok, you and LianaV have strong convictions. I appreciate and encourage that. I hope the two of you are as strong in your faith, or stronger, ten years from now as you are now.

[Ramrok]

lol bonetosser, thats why its called 'evidence' cuz its true and that its been investigated... otherwise they would be categorized as 'findings'.

[Memorix]

Ok, to me, I don't fully believe that any religion is %100 percent correct about who god is and all, but i do believe that each religion does have some truth behind it.

[mellowguy]

@BoneTosser very similar beliefs indeed

@Ramrok and LianaV. Listen, I'm a pretty open minded person. That is indeed a disclaimer for what I'm about to say. You people are hurting me. I respect your belief, really I do. I know more good christians than I know any other good people of other faiths (granted, that's because I'm in a mostly christion zone). You are a good and kind people. Whether or not the bible is true (see other forum), your church only advocates peace and tolerance. HOWEVER, you two say that Christianity is the only truth. Ramrok, you said that other faiths are Devil's paths to Hell. Please understand that although you most likely mean no offense, saying that my religion takes me down the wrong path is more than a little bit insulting. It's enraging. Feign ignorance all you want, but you were definitely insulting me. LianaV, I can't believe you said that the Devil is what made us doubt Christianity. I believe the term you are looking for is intelligence. You know why Christianities power broke in the first place? We started proving it wrong. You know that it was only a few decades ago that the church revised it's statement and said that yes, the earth does revolve around the sun? Was the position of the earth set up by the devil so that we could prove gods truth wrong? One day, you will have to own up to the fact that your beliefs and your truths are not always the same thing. You can believe in the teachings of Christianity, you can believe them to be true, but you have no more proof or understanding of Christianity than another with their own faith. By the way, Gandhi was a hindu, he never tought anyone religion. He did teach all of his followers to never be violent, so by what you said that was a bad idea.

EDIT: By rereading, I realized i was pretty much entirely off topic, and i apologize.

[Ramrok]

well mellowguy, about the devils work... what i mean is that what he normally does to turn people away from god is distract you from following the right path... by distract i mean either fill up your schedule with events and things to keep you preoccupied so you dont get time to devote to god or provide other paths of different religion to steer you off course... i didnt mean to insult your religion by making that statement... normally i pay no mind to others religion and just give them space or whatever... but to me, that would be another way that the devil can steer me off course, by having me put my faith somewhere else.

over the course of time, alot of things have made it harder for christians to grow.

1. Multiple religions... putting up more paths for people to put their faith somewhere else. let me give you a very good analogy for this... this is based on an article ive read not long ago about the game World of Warcraft... the article said that it would be incredibly hard if not impossible for another company to make an MMO(or was it RPG? not sure) game that would be able to stand at the same level of WoW... WoW knows this and their fear is not having other big pay to play games rise up to try to top the spot... WoWs fear is those tiny free to play games massively popping up, slowly but steadily withering WoWs fanbase with promises of free game play and cheap special ingame purchaseable items for improved gameplay. Now i hope you understand this analogy in that Christanity doesnt fear so much a big religion that would try to expand as opposed to the many comfortable and relaxing religions popping up promising a better lifestyle or w.e... btw i've paraphrased that article at the best of my memory.

2. Technology... with the development of technology and entertainment, there are alot more things you could be doing that can seem more appealing... again, things to keep you distracted and fill up your schedule and spend less and less time with god, or stop altogether.

3. Today's age... people need things to be explained easier, to be understood easier... theres more demand for proof and evidence... for something that relies on faith alone, it wouldnt be easy... i can guarantee you that back in the day, if the diciples knew that in this day and age, more proof and evidence would be needed... they would have kept alot of evidence intact for it to be available to us at this time.

4. Acceptable Sin... as time goes by, the acceptable boundaries for sin are stretched further and further... accepting gay marriage for starters... yah, try bringing that up back in the day... you'd get stoned on the spot... it might be only a matter of time before it spreads further... and who knows what others things are there that i havent mentioned... did you know back in the day, death was the penalty for rape or cheating on your spouse? yah, its not that bad right now.

5. Religion not being taken seriously... you could almost say its stereotyped... if someone (i guess me in this case) would start talking about faith, god, the devil, the right path stuff like that... most would tell you to take ur preaching somewhere else, or joke about quoting some Age of Empire game.

there are alot of things making it more diffcult for us... and the devil is having it more easier to turn you away from the right path.

i actually fall in that category myself... within the last 2 years i've moved 3 times, i got laid off a few months ago cuz the business i worked at could not negotiate another contract, my mom has enrolled in the military reserves and is now corporal... i havent been going to church for about a year, i've had so much to do, looking for a job, getting the house put together, bills to pay, so many distractions... trust me, the devil has it way easy now then he did before.

[leshinor]

@ leshinor
If the tree is beyond God, then what's the soil from which the tree dies and returns to? what is the air it breathes, and what are the other trees that make up the forest? God simply existing for all time is about as ridiculous as the universe suddenly exploding into existence. Apples and oranges.


I isolated the tree and the sound. I did not include the whole world in the example...
I meant that if you consider a tree falling to be God then the sound would be the way to perceive Him.

About what Ramrok said in the previous post:
People nowadays seem to need solid proof to believe in something. Well sometimes we might not be able yet to provide this proof or it might be that we need to find it by ourselves. We also seem to forget that science also makes assumptions and believes in them. In my latest post in Evolutionism vs Creationism I stated that science has solid proof. While this is true, it is also true that many of the concepts that are accepted today started out as a hypothesis. We managed to prove them because it was easy to do so, compared to how hard it is to prove God exists. So, we cannot say that God doesn't exist because there is no evidence.
That was just a general opinion of mine no really addressing it to someone in specific. Just a thought about humanity's actions today!

[analogZero]

The tree is nothing then, if not for the action of falling. That act would be God then, the tree a medium, the sounds it's gospel. Regardless of the analogy, to isolate God is to underpay his credit. What I intended for you to understand is that God would require a creator, it would require something from which it grows, from which it has always grown. What is the root of God then? Or did he simply explode violently into existence. I often find creation stories rather interesting, but utterly far fetched, like a fairy tale or a bedtime story. But there's often little else to explain God's creation, which would make for a far greater telling of God's existence.

[Lince]

If (s)he does exist I pray that (s)he will help me through life and send me to heaven.
If not it wont matter, because I likely wont remember anything when I die anyway. :P
I'll leave it at that.

[Nightmare]

by distract i mean either fill up your schedule with events and things to keep you preoccupied so you dont get time to devote to god or provide other paths of different religion to steer you off course...

So, just trying to get this straight, your saying that if I, for example, do my home work instead of... reading a chapter in the bible. I'm going to hell because I'm working hard and trying to make something of myself? All I'm saying is if god (assuming for the sake of the argument he/she/it, is real) didn't want humans to be successful they wouldn't have given us the capacity to be.

3. Today's age... people need things to be explained easier, to be understood easier... theres more demand for proof and evidence... for something that relies on faith alone, it wouldnt be easy... i can guarantee you that back in the day, if the diciples knew that in this day and age, more proof and evidence would be needed... they would have kept alot of evidence intact for it to be available to us at this time.

Of course we need proof! When we didn't have the capability to learn how thing work it was okay to say the trees row because god says so. But now that we can learn theses things, we shouldn't just accept the old standards as truth we should constantly challenge everything so that our knowledge can grow. Again god (assuming they are real) didn't want it it wouldn't happen.

4. Acceptable Sin... as time goes by, the acceptable boundaries for sin are stretched further and further... accepting gay marriage for starters... yah, try bringing that up back in the day... you'd get stoned on the spot... it might be only a matter of time before it spreads further... and who knows what others things are there that i havent mentioned... did you know back in the day, death was the penalty for rape or cheating on your spouse? yah, its not that bad right now.

First of all, we have a thread of gay marriage, further more it never was brought up back in the day, because no-one cared! If you wanted to bump uglilys with some guy everyone else would let you live your life the way you want to live it. The last to well your just wrong not only would a man not be killed for infidelity (big surprise women enjoyed no such luxury), in-fact the bible ENCOURAGED rape didaradami (no idea if I spelled that right) chapter 21 verse 13-14 where the biblical god speaks of how to wage war. and when the lord your god has delivered it (the city) into thine hands thou shale smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword, but the women and the little one and the cattle and all that is in the city even all the spoil thereof shalt thou take onto thineself. and tho shalt eat the spoils of thine enemies, which the lord god has given thee (in a nut shell kill the men, rape the women, take the children as slaves).
there you go.

[Axe Man]

You know I gotta be honest. I really hate these topics cause they usually end up in a huge argument, and then ppl try to support what they believe and it just turns into a big slam fest in the end normally anyway. That's about all I got to say.

[Inuyasha50]

I say he exists because who else would watch over us when we get into trouble, besides our parents?

[saprintha]

I'm not sure if he's real or not... Sometimes it is hard to think that there really is a god, seeing as to how he never really does anything.. But i do go to church and all so i have to believe in him.

just because you go to church, doesn't mean you have to believe in him. i go to church, and i believe in him, but you know, you don't really have to believe in him if you aren't ready to accept that, and it's okay. the church isn't making you to, it's your choice to whether to believe in him or not.

[kevinhermo]

Of course he exists, if he doesn't how would life start? With microorganisms, pffff how odd.

[Zaraki]

First of all, we have a thread of gay marriage, further more it never was brought up back in the day, because no-one cared! If you wanted to bump uglilys with some guy everyone else would let you live your life the way you want to live it. The last to well your just wrong not only would a man not be killed for infidelity (big surprise women enjoyed no such luxury), in-fact the bible ENCOURAGED rape didaradami (no idea if I spelled that right) chapter 21 verse 13-14 where the biblical god speaks of how to wage war. and when the lord your god has delivered it (the city) into thine hands thou shale smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword, but the women and the little one and the cattle and all that is in the city even all the spoil thereof shalt thou take onto thineself. and tho shalt eat the spoils of thine enemies, which the lord god has given thee (in a nut shell kill the men, rape the women, take the children as slaves).
there you go.
wtf..
people did care about gay marriage in the past. people did look down on it. sons and daughters being disowned by the family because they married the same sex. now i'll have to read that verse but i'm sure that's not what he is trying to say.
Deuturonomy Chapter 21 verse 13-14 KJV
13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.
14 And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her. http://av1611.com/kjbp/kjv-bible-text/De-21.html if you were trying to spell out Deuturonomy and were talking about that chapter and those versus how did see that?

[carolyn07]

...of course he does!,.

but for for atheist?,.well,.

but for me he surely does exist!,,,,.♥

[BrieFreSh]

yes, i do believe that he exsist.
but sometimes its hard to but i do have faith in god.
and if you dont.
then cool.
dont let other people ridicule you for it its your choice and stand up for youself on it.

[cutieB]

I do believe God exists.