The Problem of Evil???!!!

[FlrcntKnht]

Ok people here is the argument and I especially make this for JesiGash :D

The Argument Straight out
actually i lie first we have to agree that in general Popular Monotheistic religions belive that God is Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing), and Omni-Benevolent (in other words he is Morally perfect)
Please note: I know the bible/Torah/Quran does not say the morality part but it does say he is a Perfect being and with that comes the morality
anyway the Logic part that causes a contradiction

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn't exist.

copy and pasted from http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/

and as I did for my College paper I put a disclaimer I personally o not use as an argument for the fact that God doe not exist but the God that Religion has anthropomorphized many times over but some how God does not seem to recieve any flaws.

Now Do you guys find this a sound argument?

[Russkie]

Dont mind me, I'm only dropping by to urinate on this topic so as to leave my mark... But my thoughts are; so God is perfect... but since when has the world been perfect? And what if God has a totally awesome reason for having it "not perfect"?

Call me crazy, but I'd like to think life is nothing more than testing grounds.

[FlrcntKnht]

well thanks for the Golden shower LOL and actually that is a pretty good outlook on life.

[Beastking]

everybody has their own believes and im glad i could hear yours. and yes that is a nice argument. Good luck.

[Viduus]

Correct me if I'm wrong here (and trust me, I'm not in favor of the entire god thing at all, no matter what sect), but according to religions, isn't the world not perfect because not everyone follows God? I mean, isn't it basically christian belief that if everyone was a good christian everything would be perfect which is why they strive to convert every person?

[analogZero]

For this to hold ground you have to convince me that evil serves no purpose. til then, I'll be eating nachos. crunch.

[madman]

what is evil?
and is an evil man evil because of his actions, his reasons, or both.
and is becoming evil to defeat evil truly evil.

[Silverleon]

You wanna know the thruth why there's so much evil in the world? ::D: (somehoe that sounds familiar...)

[leshinor]

Interesting thread thread!!! So, here I am once again to debate with FlrcntKnht ::D: lol

3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.

Well, this is the first thing that should be cleared I think. What is evil?
Here is what Einstein debated once:
There is not really such a thing as cold. Cold is the absence of heat. There can be almost no heat at all, there can be some heat and there can be a lot of heat. However, there is nothing that we can call 'cold'. Cold is not the opposite of heat but its absence. The same way is for light and dark. There is not such thing as dark. Dark is used to denote the absence of light.
The same thing is applied to Good and Evil. There is no Evil. We call Evil the absence of Good.

I find that very interesting. What do you guys think?


4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.

Well this is the part I don't really agree with. If God is morally perfect, then by destroying Evil He would take the possibility from humans to chose for themselves what to do. If we only had the choice of doing Good, then it wouldn't be much of a choice right? God would be more of a tyrant. However, now that we can choose for our selves what to do, we are free. It might hurt God when we do evil but He will not stop us because it is our choice, just like a loving parent who is hurt by his/hers child evil deeds but will nor forcefully stop him/her just give him/her advice.

[Zaraki]

Correct me if I'm wrong here (and trust me, I'm not in favor of the entire god thing at all, no matter what sect), but according to religions, isn't the world not perfect because not everyone follows God? I mean, isn't it basically christian belief that if everyone was a good christian everything would be perfect which is why they strive to convert every person?

if you mean to keep everyone from burning in Hell for all eternity then yes. true we are trying to become more Christ like but can a christian become perfect while living on Earth, no. we are human and we will screw up. i'm way far from perfect a long with everyone else. now why God doesn't get rid of the evil in this world is a good question. He did give us free will to do pretty much whatever we want. either to obey Him, and let Him guide our lives, or try to make it in this world by ourselves, and walk down the wrong path.

now if i remember this right God was going to kill everything on Earth by using the flood because of the evil of men, and start over. of course He saved Noah because he obeyed him and promised Noah he wouldn't of flood the Earth again. now why God doesn't use wind, earth, or fire to wipe out the evil people on Earth now good question as I wonder that myself. i'm sure when the Rapture, and after the so and so years of darkness those who to accept Christ will move on to be with Him in Heaven while those who don't will be sent to Hell.

[suune]

Evil is not a problem.

Evil is fun. >:3

[FlrcntKnht]

Well that really means how do we define evil. Is evil defined by teh Lord then this argument doesn't work because God can still be morally perfect because he would be the bar for which to compare evil. Now if GOd does not exist then yes Evil does not exist as it would be a matter of perspective but that is why i posted this argument. If we say that God is morally perfect by our defintions and by what the Holy scriptures of most religion say is good and what is Evil then that God cannot exist. So this argument is really an argument against religions not entirely about God.

Interesting thread thread!!! So, here I am once again to debate with FlrcntKnht ::D: lol

3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.

Well, this is the first thing that should be cleared I think. What is evil?
Here is what Einstein debated once:
There is not really such a thing as cold. Cold is the absence of heat. There can be almost no heat at all, there can be some heat and there can be a lot of heat. However, there is nothing that we can call 'cold'. Cold is not the opposite of heat but its absence. The same way is for light and dark. There is not such thing as dark. Dark is used to denote the absence of light.
The same thing is applied to Good and Evil. There is no Evil. We call Evil the absence of Good.

I find that very interesting. What do you guys think?


4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.

Well this is the part I don't really agree with. If God is morally perfect, then by destroying Evil He would take the possibility from humans to chose for themselves what to do. If we only had the choice of doing Good, then it wouldn't be much of a choice right? God would be more of a tyrant. However, now that we can choose for our selves what to do, we are free. It might hurt God when we do evil but He will not stop us because it is our choice, just like a loving parent who is hurt by his/hers child evil deeds but will nor forcefully stop him/her just give him/her advice.

As I have said according to religion Evil does exist and God allows it too. If I remeber correctly in the christian faith the Devil has to ask permission to do things to human beings.

So your point supports the argument

[Koopaking]

I guess I'd have to shake things up here by saying that evil and good are merely terms of perception. There is nothing that is considered universally good, and nothing considered universally evil... Say what you will but there really isn't. Everything is a matter of how you perceive things.

Also, there can never be a world without this "evil". Why? In order to label something as evil or bad, we must first have a precedent of "good" to base it upon. BUT something could not really be labeled as good without a precedent of evil to base it upon! Assuming you are able to eradicate the so-called evil, there will be new perceived evils that shall arise, because regardless of what the Bible says or what God supposedly says, there is absolutely no such thing as a world without evil and there never will be.

[jamjfly]

Ok people here is the argument and I especially make this for JesiGash :D

The Argument Straight out
actually i lie first we have to agree that in general Popular Monotheistic religions belive that God is Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing), and Omni-Benevolent (in other words he is Morally perfect)
Please note: I know the bible/Torah/Quran does not say the morality part but it does say he is a Perfect being and with that comes the morality
anyway the Logic part that causes a contradiction

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn't exist.

copy and pasted from http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/

and as I did for my College paper I put a disclaimer I personally o not use as an argument for the fact that God doe not exist but the God that Religion has anthropomorphized many times over but some how God does not seem to recieve any flaws.

Now Do you guys find this a sound argument?

The thing is, God created all things GOOD AND EVIL. God does know when, and where evil exists, and has the power to ultimately destroy evil. But, if God destroyed all evil, then there would be nothing to test people's faith, which would mean we would have no choice but to follow god because there would be nothing else to follow, and God doesn't want us to follow him because there is no other choice, he wants us to follow him because we choose to.

[Zaraki]

As I have said according to religion Evil does exist and God allows it too. If I remeber correctly in the christian faith the Devil has to ask permission to do things to human beings.
never heard that before.

The thing is, God created all things GOOD AND EVIL. God does know when, and where evil exists, and has the power to ultimately destroy evil. But, if God destroyed all evil, then there would be nothing to test people's faith, which would mean we would have no choice but to follow god because there would be nothing else to follow, and God doesn't want us to follow him because there is no other choice, he wants us to follow him because we choose to.
i do agree with you there. good and evil can't exist without their over half. now this brings up a interesting idea. could Lucifer be God's other half and that's why God doesn't want to wipe out evil as well?

[Lince]

Well if HELL exists then there wouldn't be any need to eliminate all evil. They would all go there in the end. And evil existing gives the decent people a chance to show they belong in heaven.
I don't like typing long posts, so I'll leave it there.

*may or may not believe the above*

[FlrcntKnht]

I guess I'd have to shake things up here by saying that evil and good are merely terms of perception. There is nothing that is considered universally good, and nothing considered universally evil... Say what you will but there really isn't. Everything is a matter of how you perceive things.

Also, there can never be a world without this "evil". Why? In order to label something as evil or bad, we must first have a precedent of "good" to base it upon. BUT something could not really be labeled as good without a precedent of evil to base it upon! Assuming you are able to eradicate the so-called evil, there will be new perceived evils that shall arise, because regardless of what the Bible says or what God supposedly says, there is absolutely no such thing as a world without evil and there never will be.

I dont really think you are shaking anyting many people have said that evil is a matter of peception.

Ok i recognize your point that God created all things Good and Evil but the idea of Moral perfection would not allow him to allow evil to exist that is why it is the problem of Evil he has knowledge, motive, and the ability ot remove it. I am saying that the God in popular religions is viewed this way and that is why they are wrong basically but some this argument is used as well to disprove God entirely by some.

[JesiGash]

Ok people here is the argument and I especially make this for JesiGash :D

The Argument Straight out
actually i lie first we have to agree that in general Popular Monotheistic religions belive that God is Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing), and Omni-Benevolent (in other words he is Morally perfect)
Please note: I know the bible/Torah/Quran does not say the morality part but it does say he is a Perfect being and with that comes the morality
anyway the Logic part that causes a contradiction

1. If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
2. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
3. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
4. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
5. Evil exists.
6. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
7. Therefore, God doesn't exist.

copy and pasted from http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/

and as I did for my College paper I put a disclaimer I personally o not use as an argument for the fact that God doe not exist but the God that Religion has anthropomorphized many times over but some how God does not seem to recieve any flaws.

Now Do you guys find this a sound argument?


Hehe, I love my God. Thank you for the argument! It gives me more practice for things that are more intense than even this!

Now on to the debate!:cheerleader:

There is a flaw to your debate! First, let me pose a question. If you truly love someone, not that lose you virginity and then dump them crap, but life long, self sacrificing, Love. Can you force that on anyone without being considered evil? No, love can not be forced. That is why evil exists. God loves us so much that He gives us the choice to love Him back. We can choose to love Him or we can choose not to love Him. Loving Him turns forth His fruits, which is to say that His nature will be shown in us, and not loving Him turns forth the fruits of the devil...Sin. You ask why there is so much evil in the world? Look at yourselves, look at your friends, look at society. What do you see? You see a world where fornication, lust, hatred, and crime run rampant all due to the choices each man/woman/child makes. You choose to steal, you are keeping evil alive in this world. You choose to give selflessly to the needy or the broken, you keep God alive in this world. Good and evil are just names; they are the names of our choices. :hands:

God does exist, only the deaf and blind cannot experience Him. To those I have to say this, open you eyes and ears and see the wonders of the Almighty GOD!

[Gin86]

Hate is the answer.The world won't know piece if there is hate and anger