Is the Bible real?

[JesiGash]

I decided to start this debate because there is a lot of controversy over whether or not life was created by intelligent design. Well to defend intelligent design you have to know that what you are defending is real. What does the Bible say? "in the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth."(Genesis 1 verse 1) I am a Christian by faith and I believe in the Bible and it's words by faith and I believe in God by faith. So there is both my view and my stand. I am rock solid in my faith and I am ready to defend the authenticity of the Bible. Now, be so kind as to tell me your stand and why you believe that. Also, tell me why you don't believe the Bible is true and how you know.

"The Law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul: the Testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple" (Psalms 19:7 KJV)

[atomsk]

http://www.b12partners.net/mt/Gospel_FSM.jpg
yup its real
and everything it says is true

[soulten]

http://www.b12partners.net/mt/Gospel_FSM.jpg
yup its real
and everything it says is true

I'll second that, read it and see the truth man.

Throw this out there too.
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo122/Soulten/1204206397129.jpg

[SmokedBoo]

Like how you used KJV.
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." (Revelation 14:12, KJV)
By the way, what's your denomination and stance on the trinity doctrine?

[Anime_Dude]

http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo122/Soulten/1204206397129.jpg

here he is
http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk26/Anime_Life/ZombieJesus.jpg

[Koopaking]

Okay first off, everyone can agree whether or not they are Christian or whatever, that the Bible is a very important piece of literature. It is the world's best selling book and the crux of Hebrew literature.

One thing I notice is, the Bibles are always in their own section of the bookstore. They have their own entire shelves dedicated to all these Bibles. You couldn't do this with any other book, just have twenty different editions of a novel on the same rack, but you can with a Bible.

The Bible itself does not really claim to be true or false. It's written like a story, not like a nonfiction book. It's people who make it what it is. If enough people said and believed that those stupid Twilight books were real and based religions around it, they might have their own section in the bookstore as well.

The Bible itself claims that it had many authors, pretty much a different one for each book. Assuming these were written over periods of hundreds of years... how could it be entirely cohesive? These people gathered compilations of stories and put them together. It had to have had some sort of editor and publisher in order for this book to be originally available to people, you can't just write something down that you may (or may not) have seen and stick it into a stack of papers that other guys over hundreds of years have done and expect it to be a valid book.

There are many other religious books like the Bible, the Torah, the Qur'an, heck even stuff like Dianetics and that Spaghetti Monster up there. Are any of these less real or false than the Bible?

There is always a suspension of disbelief with these types of things. If you are a religious person, you can watch the Transformers movie and understand that those robots aren't real, but then you can go read Bible stories about a man living on the inside of a fish for three days or a virgin getting knocked up and having a son that can walk across water and is immortal and swear by them. Because it is a story of religion, people accept this. But if I went around with copies of Harry Potter and preached that J.K. Rowling was a messiah and that Lord Voldemort would eat our souls if we did not repent to the almighty prophet Dumbledore, people would call me insane. People treat the Bible differently because it is a religious writing accepted by society and those of its religion.

The debate boils down to not whether you think the Bible is true, but whether you believe in the teachings of Christianity, ergo you follow the book by default pretty much. Christians will tell you the book is real, and Non-Christians will tell you it isn't.

I personally don't follow any religious teachings, so yes I would have to say that I believe that while the Bible is a very important historical writing, I don't think it's any truer than Alice in Wonderland or Lord of the Rings.

As people continue to debate the fundamentals of religion, and the existence of deities, this conflict will inevitably continue. In the end it comes down to a matter of faith.

[puppetz]

i respect peoples beliefs but i cant stand people who base their whole lives around this book. its just literature. whether it be true or not. the book wasnt writtin by "god" so chill out on the whole bible thing.

[JesiGash]

Throw this out there too.[/COLOR]
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo122/Soulten/1204206397129.jpg[/QUOTE]

Yeah, except for the fact that it's taking the Bible completely out of context.

Here are my thoughts on that:

The Death + Resurrection of Jesus:
We all have done something wrong in our lives. Sure, we didn't get the death penalty for lying, but it still was wrong to do that. Well, the wrong that we do is sin and if we sin we are deserving of death. Eternal Death.

Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord".

Romans 5:10 says, "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

However, God loved us so incredibly much that He didn't want us to die so He sent Jesus His Son. Believe it or not, but Jesus is God in the Flesh. I know what you're thinking, "Wait they killed God?!" And yeah, they did (or thought they did: they killed His earthly body). However, God wanted to prove that He has power over "death". So He rose again. No, He's not a zombie that wants us to symbolically eat His flesh. If He's the all powerful God (which He is), then it stands to reason that He cannot die(which He can't). Makes since.
Now a guy just takes a bullet for you. Would you not love that guy forever? I mean seriously this stranger just died to save you! I don't care who you are, you'd love Him. You'd have to!

Lets sum it up now:
We are supposed to die.
He saves us with His life (earthly life of course)
However, He is God and has power over death so he is resurrected by His Power and Glory proving that He has power over death.
All He asked in return was for us to remember the sacrifice that He made by eating some bread. Jesus said, "This is my body given for you: do this in remembrance of me." and, " This is the cup of the new testament (agreement of covenant) in my blood, which is shed for you." (Luke 22:19, 20 KJV)

No, Jesus is not some zombie. He is an awesome God who proved His love for us by paying the price for our sins AND conquering the power and fear of death.::D:

[fazenda]

while I don't believe that god created us i won't yell at people to agree with me, and I will try my best not to judge people on there religion.
i do think the potability of a intelligent design exists but i think the bible is mostly exaggerated story's used to make people more confident in times of trouble or stop riots with fear.

I decided to start this debate because there is a lot of controversy over whether or not life was created by intelligent design. Well to defend intelligent design you have to know that what you are defending is real. What does the Bible say? "in the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth."(Genesis 1 verse 1) I am a Christian by faith and I believe in the Bible and it's words by faith and I believe in God by faith. So there is both my view and my stand. I am rock solid in my faith and am ready to defend the authenticity of the bible. Now, be so kind as to tell me your stand and why you believe that. Also, tell me why you don't believe the Bible is true and how you know.

"The Law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul: the Testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple" (Psalms 19:7 KJV)

most wars are started over religion

[JesiGash]

most wars are started over religion[/QUOTE]

Yes, they are. However, Christianity is not a religion: it's a faith. A debate for another time.

[soulten]

Yes, they are. However, Christianity is not a religion: it's a faith. A debate for another time.

That is what you're debating right now.

[fazenda]

most wars are started over religion

Yes, they are. However, Christianity is not a religion: it's a faith. A debate for another time.[/quote]

for someone who's christian by faith, Christianity is there religion

[minato2085]

http://www.b12partners.net/mt/Gospel_FSM.jpg
yup its real
and everything it says is true

well i can't say but it's sometimes right & wrong at some points... :oo:

[Silverleon]

Is the Bible real?
Of course it is!
Haven't you seen that big book filled with christianity related stuff?::D:
Now, wether what is said IN it is true or not, that's another question that i will answer as well, but first, let me ask you this.
Are you christian?
If you are, then what it says is real and did happen.
And if you're not then no, its not real and it never happened.
As simple as that.

[leshinor]

I don't think people are really answering the question here :o.o:
I think what JesiGash is asking is whether you agree with what the Bible is saying or not? Let me remind that the Bible is a book that talks about God with arguments! It's not like someday you wake up and decide to be Christian so you buy the Bible and start reading it and accepting it. The Bible is a philosophy book talking about God. Those who agree with the ideas of this book are called Christians. As simple as that.

I, sadly, haven't read the whole Bible but because of the religion classes in my school I have read a lot about it and know some stuff. I agree with what I have read so far, however, I can't really call myself a Christian because I haven't read he Bible completely.

About the wars started over religions... well they didn't. These wars would start anyway. It is just that people were able to use religion in order to motivate the people to fight. I don't recall Jesus saying kill the non-believers!

[BoneTosser]

Interesting question. Is the bible true or false. First, I'm not christian. Please don't make that mistake about me.

That aside, For me it is not so much is the bible true or not, but was it correctly interpreted events by the original authors. Beyond that, How many mistakes have been made through out the years in coping and translation? People make errors. Many of witch are not realized until it is to late.

[Zaraki]

Throw this out there too.[/COLOR]
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo122/Soulten/1204206397129.jpg

Yeah, except for the fact that it's taking the Bible completely out of context.

Here are my thoughts on that:

The Death + Resurrection of Jesus:
We all have done something wrong in our lives. Sure, we didn't get the death penalty for lying, but it still was wrong to do that. Well, the wrong that we do is sin and if we sin we are deserving of death. Eternal Death.

Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord".

Romans 5:10 says, "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."

However, God loved us so incredibly much that He didn't want us to die so He sent Jesus His Son. Believe it or not, but Jesus is God in the Flesh. I know what you're thinking, "Wait they killed God?!" And yeah, they did (or thought they did: they killed His earthly body). However, God wanted to prove that He has power over "death". So He rose again. No, He's not a zombie that wants us to symbolically eat His flesh. If He's the all powerful God (which He is), then it stands to reason that He cannot die(which He can't). Makes since.
Now a guy just takes a bullet for you. Would you not love that guy forever? I mean seriously this stranger just died to save you! I don't care who you are, you'd love Him. You'd have to!

Lets sum it up now:
We are supposed to die.
He saves us with His life (earthly life of course)
However, He is God and has power over death so he is resurrected by His Power and Glory proving that He has power over death.
All He asked in return was for us to remember the sacrifice that He made by eating some bread. Jesus said, "This is my body given for you: do this in remembrance of me." and, " This is the cup of the new testament (agreement of covenant) in my blood, which is shed for you." (Luke 22:19, 20 KJV)

No, Jesus is not some zombie. He is an awesome God who proved His love for us by paying the price for our sins AND conquering the power and fear of death.::D:

well said.::D:

i do believe the Bible is real. true man did right it down and translated it but God basically told them through a dream and actually showed them (John the Baptist if memory serves right) of what to write down. Revelations honestly has to be one of my favorite books because of the prophecy of the end of time. especially this day and age how wars are breaking out, people promising they can save a country, to a Earth Federation.

what honestly worries me about obama is how easily people voted for him because he promises he can save our country and people are seeing him as the Messiah. now do i think he might be the Anti-Christ yeah honestly do. (may the flaming begin). true a of people did vote for him because he was black and it would of been a glorious day in history for a black president, and people didn't care if he had any experience or not. i hope i am wrong about him but my cut instinct is saying yes and it has never let me down before. anyways discussion for another day.

so yeah Bible is a history book of what happened and what will come. anywho if you think i'm even crazier than that's perfectly fine because i know i am.:oo:::D:

[leshinor]

well said.::D:

i do believe the Bible is real. true man did right it down and translated it but God basically told them through a dream and actually showed them (John the Baptist if memory serves right) of what to write down. Revelations honestly has to be one of my favorite books because of the prophecy of the end of time. especially this day and age how wars are breaking out, people promising they can save a country, to a Earth Federation.

what honestly worries me about obama is how easily people voted for him because he promises he can save our country and people are seeing him as the Messiah. now do i think he might be the Anti-Christ yeah honestly do. (may the flaming begin). true a of people did vote for him because he was black and it would of been a glorious day in history for a black president, and people didn't care if he had any experience or not. i hope i am wrong about him but my cut instinct is saying yes and it has never let me down before. anyways discussion for another day.

so yeah Bible is a history book of what happened and what will come. anywho if you think i'm even crazier than that's perfectly fine because i know i am.:oo:::D:

Well, you might argue if Obama is better or worse than McCain but calling him the Anti-Christ is taking a bit too far! lol
Besides, how worse can he be from Bush??? :oo:

[Waste]

I think its a story made up hundreds of years ago to scare small children into doing as they are told.
Slash.
To scare a kings kingdom into abiding by the rules and not rioting, pillaging or having gay sex.
A story that most people are still gullible enough to believe today.

[Ikki7]

Of course the bible is real!!

[Zaraki]

Well, you might argue if Obama is better or worse than McCain but calling him the Anti-Christ is taking a bit too far! lol
Besides, how worse can he be from Bush??? :oo:

lol just saying though and i hope i'm wrong. :dead: right now him wanting the russians to negotiate on our behalf to the iran government to stop it's nuclear program is a dumb idea, and the other things he has done in this short period of time doesn't impress me.

the funny thing is i'm not the only one who believes this so there are more crazies like me. :oo: everyone at the church i go to every now and then believes that as well. even some of the idiot christians who voted for him believe it. any who i'll shut up now.:happy:

[strike7785]

No comment!

[Beastking]

you have to make that decision on your own. If you believe, then do it. If not then dont. Its up to you.

[analogZero]

Yes it is a real book, like many other literary religious doctrines.
It carries a devout following of worshipers with mixed understandings of it's teachings as do many of the other literary religious doctrines.
It's been around for thousands of years, as have many of the other literary religious doctrines.
It's spins yarns of miraculous events and holy people, as do many of the other religious doctrines.
Believers in it's stories claim it is the only literary religious doctrine that holds truth. As do many believers of other literary religious doctrines.
There are claims that it was written (indirectly perhaps) by the diety of it's stories, as is many other literary religious doctrines.
It contains many similarities to other literary religious doctrines, as do many other literary religious doctrines.
It has spawned more religious spin offs than most other literary religious doctrines, and yet is a spin off itself.
It tells a tale of a symbolic man of God, as do many other literary religious doctrines.
It teaches earthly lessons on how to progress through life in a peaceful and joyous manner, as do many other literary religious doctrines.
etc.

it's special, is what I'm saying.

[Silverleon]

Well, its technically as i said before, considering there's no way to be completly sure now, it can only be true if you believe it is, and if you think its all lies and stuff, then that will be your answer.
This is depends more on the individual than a true/false answer for a group of people.

[leerock89]

The historical data in the bible is real. The majority of the stories in the bible are also real. What everyone needs to know is that there are books that are forbidden from the bible that should be in there and that some of the true meaning of the bible got lost in translation and it also got massively warped in the wrong way because if the catholic church during the dark ages. Theres a lot of good lessons to be had in there and solid facts but other then that...ITS A REALLY LONG BOOK TO READ FROM START TO FINISH. Who in here actually read the whole thing over cause I'll tell you right now if you actually read the dam thing from start to finish you would stop being a christian.

[Silverleon]

The historical data in the bible is real. The majority of the stories in the bible are also real. What everyone needs to know is that there are books that are forbidden from the bible that should be in there and that some of the true meaning of the bible got lost in translation and it also got massively warped in the wrong way because if the catholic church during the dark ages. Theres a lot of good lessons to be had in there and solid facts but other then that...ITS A REALLY LONG BOOK TO READ FROM START TO FINISH. Who in here actually read the whole thing over cause I'll tell you right now if you actually read the dam thing from start to finish you would stop being a christian.

I don't think anyone who has read the entire bible would be a member of an Anime site ::D:
just saying...

[leerock89]

I don't think anyone who has read the entire bible would be a member of an Anime site ::D:
just saying...

I figured as much which is why I am going to close this thread real soon cause theres no need to have a debate on something no one actually fully read and understood.

[Zaraki]

I don't think anyone who has read the entire bible would be a member of an Anime site ::D:
just saying...

wrong there:dance:

[-.Shiki.-]

From my perspective, The Bible is just a thing that the apostles wrote,
not because they were "illuminated by the light of the holy spirit" [that for me sounds like the reasoning of a stupid/drunk man] but because they just wanted to make some kind of book to teach people not to be "bad" by using the example of Jesus. They just wanted to help. But people in that time were very stupid [just as in now], so they took literally everything that was written in there.

To sum it up: Don't take literally what the bible says as it is just a book of sayings to make a you a better person. Only a monkey would actually believe that literally..

[Sadrith]

Anymore I'm open to any anwser if science can provide it then great but I feel better trusting in science and what we can prove.

[leerock89]

You know I was watching Ancient Aliens on tv the other day. Its a documentary on a theory of how aliens were with our ancestors and how they might have helped our earlier civilizations such as the Egyptians, Indians, Chinese, Aztecs, Mayans etc etc. There are some really bizarre and unexplained things on out planet that points to extraterrestrials helping our people in the past. One of them is an ancient ruin's of a city that is dated to be 15 thousand years old but thats not the amazing thing. If you take a closer look at the city you can see pieces of rock that have drill holes and such that our ancestors could not have done. I mean I got to see a close up of a huge ruin piece and there were symmetrical holes and even more symmetrical lines on it that we could only have done in the last couple hundred years or so not 15 thousand years. Also the ruins were made of granite and dia... something (tried to look it up but I couldnt find the word. Its a stone thats so tough the only thing that will cut is is a drill or blade that is diamond tipped) and these stones aren't found ANYWHERE near the ruin site. Heck, even modern architects and construction masters took a look at the ruins and said we CANNOT DUPLICATE THESE RUINS. The documentary also went into the bible and a certain apostle, Enoch. Enoch's book is a forbidden book of the bible, that explains that he was taken away from the planet for 300 years and when he returned he gave detailed descriptions on what had happened and who he traveled with and the apocalyptic prophecy he returned with. There are also some things in the bible such as Ezekiel's Chariot, a device which allowed him to fly. The way I see it, humans who experienced these amazing things, these feats that were so astounding they could only explain it as godlike, these events that shook the whole world, they had to write it down and when they wrote it down they wrote it down as they would during their time period. So in other words what seemed like an angel with full head gear and body armor comes down from the heaven bringing gifts or power or anything, our ancestors had no other way to describe it other then saying that it was beyond anything they know and it had to be a work of a god which is why I said the bible had lost a lot of its actual meaning in translation and time itself. Whats funny is humans can seem to explain these things as works of a god but not aliens! Are not both idea's far out and wacky?? I mean why does it only have to be god? Why couldn't it have been some wise and uber super teched out alien who wanted to help out our race?

[leshinor]

From my perspective, The Bible is just a thing that the apostles wrote,
not because they were "illuminated by the light of the holy spirit" [that for me sounds like the reasoning of a stupid/drunk man] but because they just wanted to make some kind of book to teach people not to be "bad" by using the example of Jesus. They just wanted to help. But people in that time were very stupid [just as in now], so they took literally everything that was written in there.

To sum it up: Don't take literally what the bible says as it is just a book of sayings to make a you a better person. Only a monkey would actually believe that literally..

Finally a person I can agree with! Thank God!!! Thank Alien!!! Thank Darwin or whoever you like.
The Bible gives stories to give an example of how people should or shouldn't act. Others of course, like Jesus' life are real, or at least that's what I believe. But, you can't really go around claiming to be the descendant of Adam and Eve!!!!!!!

You know I was watching Ancient Aliens on tv the other day. Its a documentary on a theory of how aliens were with our ancestors and how they might have helped our earlier civilizations such as the Egyptians, Indians, Chinese, Aztecs, Mayans etc etc. There are some really bizarre and unexplained things on out planet that points to extraterrestrials helping our people in the past. One of them is an ancient ruin's of a city that is dated to be 15 thousand years old but thats not the amazing thing. If you take a closer look at the city you can see pieces of rock that have drill holes and such that our ancestors could not have done. I mean I got to see a close up of a huge ruin piece and there were symmetrical holes and even more symmetrical lines on it that we could only have done in the last couple hundred years or so not 15 thousand years. Also the ruins were made of granite and dia... something (tried to look it up but I couldnt find the word. Its a stone thats so tough the only thing that will cut is is a drill or blade that is diamond tipped) and these stones aren't found ANYWHERE near the ruin site. Heck, even modern architects and construction masters took a look at the ruins and said we CANNOT DUPLICATE THESE RUINS. The documentary also went into the bible and a certain apostle, Enoch. Enoch's book is a forbidden book of the bible, that explains that he was taken away from the planet for 300 years and when he returned he gave detailed descriptions on what had happened and who he traveled with and the apocalyptic prophecy he returned with. There are also some things in the bible such as Ezekiel's Chariot, a device which allowed him to fly. The way I see it, humans who experienced these amazing things, these feats that were so astounding they could only explain it as godlike, these events that shook the whole world, they had to write it down and when they wrote it down they wrote it down as they would during their time period. So in other words what seemed like an angel with full head gear and body armor comes down from the heaven bringing gifts or power or anything, our ancestors had no other way to describe it other then saying that it was beyond anything they know and it had to be a work of a god which is why I said the bible had lost a lot of its actual meaning in translation and time itself. Whats funny is humans can seem to explain these things as works of a god but not aliens! Are not both idea's far out and wacky?? I mean why does it only have to be god? Why couldn't it have been some wise and uber super teched out alien who wanted to help out our race?

That's true that the past holds way too many mysteries! It might be aliens, it might be God, it might be a human civilization that was destroyed or it might even be people from the future with a time machine!!! Nobody can say for certain.
What you are wrong about is this: people don't believe in God because some guys wrote that they saw an angel with full bod armor!!! Or at least that's how it should be.
People believe in God because of certain logical explanations that they had and of course some faith.

[leerock89]

That's true that the past holds way too many mysteries! It might be aliens, it might be God, it might be a human civilization that was destroyed or it might even be people from the future with a time machine!!! Nobody can say for certain.
What you are wrong about is this: people don't believe in God because some guys wrote that they saw an angel with full bod armor!!! Or at least that's how it should be.
People believe in God because of certain logical explanations that they had and of course some faith.

Not just some, blind faith. I'm just saying, thats how an event was described as, as God or such and such came and helped out, and thats the way it looked to our ancestors which is why it is what it is today. Back then, it happened right in front of their eyes and they tried to explain those events the best they could and because they witnessed it they have more then just faith, they KNEW, and they transferred that into writing. That explanation and knowledge became a religion, which after time, lost a lot of it's truth because of humans. Granted the basic truths stayed, such as you shall not kill, love thy neighbor blah blah blah, but through out the ages the interpretation of it changed and at times was intentionally changed.

[leshinor]

Not just some, blind faith. I'm just saying, thats how an event was described as, as God or such and such came and helped out, and thats the way it looked to our ancestors which is why it is what it is today. Back then, it happened right in front of their eyes and they tried to explain those events the best they could and because they witnessed it they have more then just faith, they KNEW, and they transferred that into writing. That explanation and knowledge became a religion, which after time, lost a lot of it's truth because of humans. Granted the basic truths stayed, such as you shall not kill, love thy neighbor blah blah blah, but through out the ages the interpretation of it changed and at times was intentionally changed.

Sure this is possible but so are many other scenarios. It could be that the truth faded away but it also could be that it didn't. But that gets us nowhere and it gets off topic too! lol

[leerock89]

Sure this is possible but so are many other scenarios. It could be that the truth faded away but it also could be that it didn't. But that gets us nowhere and it gets off topic too! lol

Dammit!! I WANT TO TALK ABOUT LIZARD ALIENS NOT THE BIBLE!!!!

[UkeShuichi]

I believe, completely, that the bible is not only telling the truth, but is also the word of God. I have seen countless things showing that he not only exists, but loves us, through my life and refuse to deny as such to anybody. But, I also think that religion is a lie because of the man made laws that have been put behind it, and that it's about the relationship rather than the religion. With such, I could care less what the world thinks of me. We are all sinners. That makes me no better or worse than anybody else on this planet. ::D:

[JesiGash]

That is what you're debating right now.

Huh, you're right. Okay.

Here's how it goes:

Religious Christianity: In a word, hypocrites. They are the people that say they love God but act just like everyone else. They go through the motions. They are those who don't, "push their religion on others". (By definition, "pushing religion on others" simply means stating your beliefs. So, by saying that you don't believe in God and that you don't push your religion is, in fact, pushing your religion. Plus, if you don't say it you don't really believe it. Which ties into "faith". :dizzy:)

The Christian faith: First, what is "faith"? Hebrews says that, "Faith is the substance of things hoped* for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb 1:1 KJV). So faith is believing in what we cannot see. Here's a thought: "Faith" is saying, to yourself, "When I sit in this chair I believe that it has the strength to hold me". Same with having faith in Jesus. It's simply saying, "I am going to have faith that Jesus can save me from death"

Faith = Action
Religion = No action

"We walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Cor 5:7)

*-
I believe that it is the Greek word for "faith" that is the same as the word for "hope". Hope = Faith.? I'll have to dig that out of my notes.

A crazy thing about the word "Christian" is that it means "Christ follower". That in itself should point out a BIG difference between hardcore followers and hypocrites.

Another crazy thing that came to mind is the fact that Jesus hated religion. So if the God you are supposed to be following hates religion; what does that mean for His followers? It means that, unless you claim Christianity as your religion, what you are following is greater than any man made theory or belief.

I read what someone had wrote about if a Christian read the entire Bible that they probably wouldn't be on a anime forum. Completely untrue. True Christians go were there are people who need to hear the Word of God.

I believe, completely, that the bible is not only telling the truth, but is also the word of God. I have seen countless things showing that he not only exists, but loves us, through my life and refuse to deny as such to anybody. But, I also think that religion is a lie because of the man made laws that have been put behind it, and that it's about the relationship rather than the religion. With such, I could care less what the world thinks of me. We are all sinners. That makes me no better or worse than anybody else on this planet. ::D:

Spot on dear chap!::D:

[UkeShuichi]

Spot on dear chap!::D:

Thank you. ^_^

[analogZero]

Huh, you're right. Okay.

Here's how it goes:

Religious Christianity: In a word, hypocrites. They are the people that say they love God but act just like everyone else. They go through the motions. They are those who don't, "push their religion on others". (By definition, "pushing religion on others" simply means stating your beliefs. So, by saying that you don't believe in God and that you don't push your religion is, in fact, pushing your religion. Plus, if you don't say it you don't really believe it. Which ties into "faith". :dizzy:)

The Christian faith: First, what is "faith"? Hebrews says that, "Faith is the substance of things hoped* for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb 1:1 KJV). So faith is believing in what we cannot see. Here's a thought: "Faith" is saying, to yourself, "When I sit in this chair I believe that it has the strength to hold me". Same with having faith in Jesus. It's simply saying, "I am going to have faith that Jesus can save me from death"

Faith = Action
Religion = No action

"We walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Cor 5:7)

*-
I believe that it is the Greek word for "faith" that is the same as the word for "hope". Hope = Faith.? I'll have to dig that out of my notes.

A crazy thing about the word "Christian" is that it means "Christ follower". That in itself should point out a BIG difference between hardcore followers and hypocrites.

Another crazy thing that came to mind is the fact that Jesus hated religion. So if the God you are supposed to be following hates religion; what does that mean for His followers? It means that, unless you claim Christianity as your religion, what you are following is greater than any man made theory or belief.

I read what someone had wrote about if a Christian read the entire Bible that they probably wouldn't be on a anime forum. Completely untrue. True Christians go were there are people who need to hear the Word of God.

You're just transforming the word religion to suit your speech. Religion is in it's basics a set of fundamental beliefs and practices. By your design of the word any christian who goes to church is a phony. Anybody who reads the bible would be as well. If Jesus doesn't believe in religion then you'd have no reason to follow him. Faith is nothing more than an element of religion, you could say. Hope can stand alone to all decrees, religious or non, while faith requires something by which to focus.

[Russkie]

*Face palm*

If I had known you were going to post such a thread, I would have stopped you from walking into a FUCKING DEATH TRAP... wait... that doesnt sound like me. Okay, so I would let you walk into a fucking death trap, but the point is, I've learned that the majority of the AF society is that they're mostly atheists... and they're going to FLAME YOUR ASS.

Clearly I'm a little late, but I thought this message might serve as a "I told you so" scenario. Personally, I've been raised a up in a certain religion, so yeah... I believe in a God. But like I'm trying so hard to say... if you throw the bible in their face, they're going to throw a flaming-bag-of-poo in yours.

Cheers.

[JesiGash]

You're just transforming the word religion to suit your speech. Religion is in it's basics a set of fundamental beliefs and practices. By your design of the word any christian who goes to church is a phony. Anybody who reads the bible would be as well. If Jesus doesn't believe in religion then you'd have no reason to follow him. Faith is nothing more than an element of religion, you could say. Hope can stand alone to all decrees, religious or non, while faith requires something by which to focus.


Well that depends on the person. A lot of people, as I believe I stated, just go through the motions expecting their actions to save them. So they are phony. However, there are those who know that faith is founded on the Word of God and if the building burnt to the ground the church, and their faith, would still stand. The same goes for people who read the Bible. I heard this story of this guy who was trapped in a prison and all he had to read was the Bible. He read the Bible, but instead of trying to determine it's meaning he went through and made a list of all of the unessential facts about the Bible. For instance: instead of realizing that "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom 10:17) he determined how many times the word "I" was used in the Bible. Although they don't treat it to that extent, there are still people out there who read the Bible as just another book. They put no effort into finding any truth written therein. That is the difference between "Spiritual Faith" and "religion". (I probably should have mentioned the spiritual faith part >_>;)

[Zaraki]

*Face palm*

If I had known you were going to post such a thread, I would have stopped you from walking into a FUCKING DEATH TRAP... wait... that doesnt sound like me. Okay, so I would let you walk into a fucking death trap, but the point is, I've learned that the majority of the AF society is that they're mostly atheists... and they're going to FLAME YOUR ASS.

Clearly I'm a little late, but I thought this message might serve as a "I told you so" scenario. Personally, I've been raised a up in a certain religion, so yeah... I believe in a God. But like I'm trying so hard to say... if you throw the bible in their face, they're going to throw a flaming-bag-of-poo in yours.

Cheers.

yeah i found out the hard way even when the author said post your opinions about gay marriage. a good portion of AF society is liberal. any-who i like these debates better than the which is better debates.

[analogZero]

Well that depends on the person. A lot of people, as I believe I stated, just go through the motions expecting their actions to save them. So they are phony. However, there are those who know that faith is founded on the Word of God and if the building burnt to the ground the church, and their faith, would still stand. The same goes for people who read the Bible. I heard this story of this guy who was trapped in a prison and all he had to read was the Bible. He read the Bible, but instead of trying to determine it's meaning he went through and made a list of all of the unessential facts about the Bible. For instance: instead of realizing that "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom 10:17) he determined how many times the word "I" was used in the Bible. Although they don't treat it to that extent, there are still people out there who read the Bible as just another book. They put no effort into finding any truth written therein. That is the difference between "Spiritual Faith" and "religion". (I probably should have mentioned the spiritual faith part >_>;)

I understand what you're saying, but your faith is equally measured through your actions and your beliefs, thus, religion is formed. Religion is your truth, a combination of your faith, belief and action equaling a varity. It's somewhat hateful to say that someone is phony simply because they haven't achieve the same level of development as you, but that isn't to say that they can't change their ways. That's what repentance is for, am I wrong? It's often the case, I find, that christians care more for the quantity of their flock rather than the quality. There wouldn't be so many phonies if they were given proper direction rather than focusing on those who know not/wish not direction.
Spiritual faith doesn't require a christian god. Spiritual faith is applicable to any and all religions/faiths that require a following. So then why is a christian god the one and true god?

[Zaraki]

I understand what you're saying, but your faith is equally measured through your actions and your beliefs, thus, religion is formed. Religion is your truth, a combination of your faith, belief and action equaling a varity. It's somewhat hateful to say that someone is phony simply because they haven't achieve the same level of development as you, but that isn't to say that they can't change their ways. That's what repentance is for, am I wrong? It's often the case, I find, that christians care more for the quantity of their flock rather than the quality. There wouldn't be so many phonies if they were given proper direction rather than focusing on those who know not/wish not direction.
Spiritual faith doesn't require a christian god. Spiritual faith is applicable to any and all religions/faiths that require a following. So then why is a christian god the one and true god?

sorry for bumping in but i do agree with you there. i am a christian, but i do a lot of things that i know i shouldn't have. i pray for forgiveness each night for it. i'm a baptist and we believe no matter what you do you can't lose your salvation to a certain degree. i've been through a rough year myself, and it seems most christians lose faith when something bad happens to them. my would of been girlfriend lost her faith and basically gave God the finger. i know i'm going way off topic again, but will she burn in Hell for eternity. i don't know, i guess she could for it.

[jamjfly]

For all that think God does not exist, then explain to me how it is we came to be?

[analogZero]

For all that think God does not exist, then explain to me how it is we came to be?

http://www.animefuel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11520

that's how...well not really.

[JesiGash]

I understand what you're saying, but your faith is equally measured through your actions and your beliefs, thus, religion is formed. Religion is your truth, a combination of your faith, belief and action equaling a varity. It's somewhat hateful to say that someone is phony simply because they haven't achieve the same level of development as you, but that isn't to say that they can't change their ways. That's what repentance is for, am I wrong? It's often the case, I find, that christians care more for the quantity of their flock rather than the quality. There wouldn't be so many phonies if they were given proper direction rather than focusing on those who know not/wish not direction.
Spiritual faith doesn't require a christian god. Spiritual faith is applicable to any and all religions/faiths that require a following. So then why is a christian god the one and true god?



Huh, that is very interesting. I'm gonna look more into that.

I'm not saying that the people who haven't achieved the same level of spirituality as me are phony. I am still learning and I'll always be learning. However, what I am saying is that people who think saying a prayer is the only thing needed or people who think that doing good works is the path to salvation and never work on their faith are the ones who are phony. And of course, any one who truly wants salvation only needs to ask, but as Christians we are either hot or we're cold. Hot being those who are never satisfied with their faith and are always trying to improve their relationship with God. Cold being those who think that going to church is the same as being PART of the church. God won't reject anybody, but He does expect you to mature as a Christian. Those "Christians" who don't even try to are... Phony. No way around it.

Well the question comes done to, are you going to believe in a God that wants you to better you, Him, and those around you? Or are you going to believe in a god that either demands sacrifices or the betterment of just yourself? Better yet, are you going to follow a God that sacrificed Himself for YOUR sake or are you going to follow a god that tells you to give yourself up because he demands it?

[Nightmare]

For all that think God does not exist, then explain to me how it is we came to be?

Actually I just finished a book that explains this pretty well, and I quote.
"People believe in God because the world is very complicated and they think it is very unlikely that anything as complicated as a flying squirrel or the human eye of a brain could happen by chance... it is like if everyone in the world was tossing coins eventually someone would get 5,698 heads in a row... there is life on earth because of an accident. But It is a very special kind of accident. And for this accident to happen in this special way, there have to be 3 conditions. And these are
1. things have to make copies of themselves (this is called Replication)
2. They have to make small mistakes when they do this (this is called Mutation)
3. These mistakes have to be the same in there copies (this is called Heritability)"
I had to skip a little hear and there (the author tends to ramble a bit) but you got the important stuff.

[soulten]

Blah, blah, blah.....etc.

However, God loved us so incredibly much that He didn't want us to die so He sent Jesus His Son. Believe it or not, but Jesus is God in the Flesh. I know what you're thinking, "Wait they killed God?!" And yeah, they did (or thought they did: they killed His earthly body). However, God wanted to prove that He has power over "death". So He rose again. No, He's not a zombie that wants us to symbolically eat His flesh. If He's the all powerful God (which He is), then it stands to reason that He cannot die(which He can't). Makes since.
Now a guy just takes a bullet for you. Would you not love that guy forever? I mean seriously this stranger just died to save you! I don't care who you are, you'd love Him. You'd have to!

blah, blah, blah.....etc.

No, Jesus is not some zombie. He is an awesome God who proved His love for us by paying the price for our sins AND conquering the power and fear of death.::D:

Define Zombie: Human corpse brought back to life.
God in the flesh means he is a human, no?
We killed him, he was dead.
Define dead: not showing characteristics of life especially the capacity to sustain life.
He rose again. That would mean he came back to life.
Pretty much sums up a zombie to me.

For the he(god) can not die. You would be referring to the spirit/soul(if that exists). Spirit/soul has nothing whatsoever do with the transformation of a zombie. If you are considered dead for longer that a day you are probably dead, come back to life miraculously after that you are a zombie, be it you are back to your old conciseness or not. You are still a re-animated corpse i.e. ZOMBIE!

I wouldn't.

[strike7785]

of course its real. You see a book on the table, you pick it up, and start opening up the pages. Hmmmmm.... looks real enough to me

[leshinor]

Soulten, Christianity believes that God doesn't have a body. He simply took a human form by being born. The flesh is not God, it is the soul! Now, if you want to call a body that lost its soul for a while then go ahead. The name you give something doesn't change the actual thing.

Nightmare I think you should read and comment on the thread Evolutionism vs Creationism.

What JesiGash is trying to say about phonies is this:
There are people who read the Bible as a rule book. So, they do not steal, they do not kill, they do not hate others (or so they want to think), they go to the Church every Sunday, etc, and think highly of themselves because the follow the Word of God! It sure is nice not to commit sins but what really matters is the reason you do it. I you don't steal because a priest said you will go to hell if you do then that's not really understanding what Jesus said. However, if you don't steal because you don't want to hurt others, then that is what is right!

I think by religion JesiGash meant to say dogma.
A dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion, ideology or any kind of organization; it is authoritative and not to be disputed, doubted or diverged from.
But, guys please don't get stuck with words but try to understand a person's point. Of course we can't be using a wrong word but still try to focus more on the actual point rather than the words used to describe it.

Also, please refrain from saying Christians do this and Christians do that. It's annoying to admit it but most Christians know very little of their religion so don't confuse the majority's beliefs with what Jesus wanted and said!

Furthermore, I often hear people saying the Christian God, the Muslim God, etc. I think that is wrong. You might say the ancient Greek gods, because they are many (Zeus, Athena, Hermes, etc) but most of the 'modern' religions believe in the existence of one God. So, you can either say you believe in God or you don't. If you believe in God, then you can believe the Christian way of describing Him, the Muslim way of describing Him, and so on. Most religions today describe some of God's features differently not a different God though, since they all say there is only one God.


Now, a point that I find interesting is that Jesus never wrote any of the stuff he taught. Everything we know about Him is mainly from his students. Thus, there is a possibility that the New Testament contains some inaccuracies and misconceptions, because of course we cannot expect from humans to completely understand the Word of God and even so explain it properly in a book! In addition to that, the Old Testament was not written based on Jesus but on the stories of people who claim to have experienced God, if I remember correctly! Finally, if I am not wrong, Jesus never said Himself that He is the Son of God. He was always referring to Himself as the son of a human or something like that, can't really remember the expression!

[Beastking]

You know I was watching Ancient Aliens on tv the other day. Its a documentary on a theory of how aliens were with our ancestors and how they might have helped our earlier civilizations such as the Egyptians, Indians, Chinese, Aztecs, Mayans etc etc. There are some really bizarre and unexplained things on out planet that points to extraterrestrials helping our people in the past. One of them is an ancient ruin's of a city that is dated to be 15 thousand years old but thats not the amazing thing. If you take a closer look at the city you can see pieces of rock that have drill holes and such that our ancestors could not have done. I mean I got to see a close up of a huge ruin piece and there were symmetrical holes and even more symmetrical lines on it that we could only have done in the last couple hundred years or so not 15 thousand years. Also the ruins were made of granite and dia... something (tried to look it up but I couldnt find the word. Its a stone thats so tough the only thing that will cut is is a drill or blade that is diamond tipped) and these stones aren't found ANYWHERE near the ruin site. Heck, even modern architects and construction masters took a look at the ruins and said we CANNOT DUPLICATE THESE RUINS. The documentary also went into the bible and a certain apostle, Enoch. Enoch's book is a forbidden book of the bible, that explains that he was taken away from the planet for 300 years and when he returned he gave detailed descriptions on what had happened and who he traveled with and the apocalyptic prophecy he returned with. There are also some things in the bible such as Ezekiel's Chariot, a device which allowed him to fly. The way I see it, humans who experienced these amazing things, these feats that were so astounding they could only explain it as godlike, these events that shook the whole world, they had to write it down and when they wrote it down they wrote it down as they would during their time period. So in other words what seemed like an angel with full head gear and body armor comes down from the heaven bringing gifts or power or anything, our ancestors had no other way to describe it other then saying that it was beyond anything they know and it had to be a work of a god which is why I said the bible had lost a lot of its actual meaning in translation and time itself. Whats funny is humans can seem to explain these things as works of a god but not aliens! Are not both idea's far out and wacky?? I mean why does it only have to be god? Why couldn't it have been some wise and uber super teched out alien who wanted to help out our race?

LOL!! i watched that 2...

[leerock89]

Now, a point that I find interesting is that Jesus never wrote any of the stuff he taught. Everything we know about Him is mainly from his students. Thus, there is a possibility that the New Testament contains some inaccuracies and misconceptions, because of course we cannot expect from humans to completely understand the Word of God and even so explain it properly in a book! In addition to that, the Old Testament was not written based on Jesus but on the stories of people who claim to have experienced God, if I remember correctly! Finally, if I am not wrong, Jesus never said Himself that He is the Son of God. He was always referring to Himself as the son of a human or something like that, can't really remember the expression!

Well the way I see it Jesus was a man with a purpose. Remember his parents had to flee with him away from Israel because of Herod and he never came back to Israel until he was already in manhood. So think about it. If you look into Egypt's own history they had such a knowledge of a science that they were able to turn stave into stone, as the story about Moses and the Egyptian magician tell, and then they had a few thousand years to work on that "magic". Jesus got a whole sale education in the mystic land and came to Israel fully loaded with knowledge and power and an agenda. The question is why did he come back and do what he did? Why start a religion as such, whose teachings are that of love, peace and serenity? If you look at the Old Testament you will read of a very powerful, stern and WRATHFUL god and then this guy, come out of no where, does a few trick's and then reverses what God is supposed to be, turning an all powerful and fearsome God, into a God that loves everyone and everything. SOUNDS LIKE A FREAKEN HIPPY TO ME. I propose unto AF that Jesus was, as said in a movie,"a hippy in a dashiki" with some good stuff under his belt, if you know what I mean and his real purpose was to weaken the power of the Jewish God by turning God into a pansy but instead, because of his oh so zealous apostles, he turned God and himself into all powerful loving deities that blasted the planet with powerful messages of hope grace love and peace. Of course the Church was able to turn that love into fear by threatening Satan and Hell but thats another story completely.

[FlrcntKnht]

The Bible is a book but I think people should take life lessons from it and not hold it to it's literal text. Regligous texts are lessons for people of that faith. The Torah and the Quran are they same way but people who take ti seriously are people like the muslim extremists. The books are compiled by men who say they recieved it from God but it seems to have alterior motives from a historical stand point like the Jihad portion which, if I remember correctly, was added as a result of the crusades. Seems to have come at an odd time. I would think that it would have been an idea to prepare the people not to give them instructions After years of slaughter.

[analogZero]

Well the way I see it Jesus was a man with a purpose. Remember his parents had to flee with him away from Israel because of Herod and he never came back to Israel until he was already in manhood. So think about it. If you look into Egypt's own history they had such a knowledge of a science that they were able to turn stave into stone, as the story about Moses and the Egyptian magician tell, and then they had a few thousand years to work on that "magic". Jesus got a whole sale education in the mystic land and came to Israel fully loaded with knowledge and power and an agenda. The question is why did he come back and do what he did? Why start a religion as such, whose teachings are that of love, peace and serenity? If you look at the Old Testament you will read of a very powerful, stern and WRATHFUL god and then this guy, come out of no where, does a few trick's and then reverses what God is supposed to be, turning an all powerful and fearsome God, into a God that loves everyone and everything. SOUNDS LIKE A FREAKEN HIPPY TO ME. I propose unto AF that Jesus was, as said in a movie,"a hippy in a dashiki" with some good stuff under his belt, if you know what I mean and his real purpose was to weaken the power of the Jewish God by turning God into a pansy but instead, because of his oh so zealous apostles, he turned God and himself into all powerful loving deities that blasted the planet with powerful messages of hope grace love and peace. Of course the Church was able to turn that love into fear by threatening Satan and Hell but thats another story completely.


the long hair and the beard, drank wine and wore sandals....sounds plausible.

[Mugen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0WsnKQCax8&feature=related

[mikesword]

I think the bible is full of shit. I'm not tryin to insult anyone's beliefs this is just my personal opinion.

[leshinor]

I think the bible is full of shit. I'm not tryin to insult anyone's beliefs this is just my personal opinion.

Well, you are insulting Christians by saying this, though! :oo: lol
You might want to put it more like this: I do not believe the Bible to describe true facts, or smth like this...
:o.o:

[suune]

The Bible is an excellent work of literature, but I don't think you should believe it literally. It's not written to be interpreted as a matter of fact, it's more like a story from which you should discover the real message and do the right thing.

You don't have to be religious to be a good person, but to be a good religious person you have to be more than a good person.

[nosophoros]

the Bible is not historical accurate thus it contains more fictional events than actual ones or thats my reasoning anyway.
oh and (Obama=antichrist)=lolz

[xantok]

i believe all religion was created to control people... people by nature are savage beings.... religion was created to control them... then that religion split due to people being idiots and taking it all seriously, and has continued to since then

[lee matsu]

ask the on3 who wrote it ;p

[iMuffin x3]

I don't think it is.
It could just be a tale some guy thought of to write.

[leshinor]

The Bible is an excellent work of literature, but I don't think you should believe it literally. It's not written to be interpreted as a matter of fact, it's more like a story from which you should discover the real message and do the right thing.

That is what I believe too. The Bible contains too many stories that are used as a reference and have a deeper meaning but are not real! Well, not all of them but at least some...


You don't have to be religious to be a good person, but to be a good religious person you have to be more than a good person.


Yup! I agree 100% there! Too many ppl believe that in the Christian religion you need to be a Christian or you will burn in hell. Well, that is not right! Jesus never said smth like that! That idea was created in Middle Age to control ppl. It has nothing to do with the religion itself.

[CryticX]

People exclude Christianity to allow themselves to indulge and do whatever they want, rather Christianity is another layer of moral...that's the way I see it, why remove the basis of the Bible in most countries? Because this allows idiots or rather morons (educated idiots) homosexuality, crime, abortion (poor babies)....So this is why I choose to support the Bible as it brings success to every country that accepts it as its basis, countries that used to be under the Bible that now are failing are US,UK etc.... don't lie to yourselves THEY ARE FAILING...I don't mean to sound unpatriotic but this is unacceptable.

[Dark_Thorn]

I am sorry I can't folloe the whole big bang throery or any other thing these so called scientest. They say that in the beggannign that there was nothing...but some how the whole universe just came from nothing. I strongly believe in my GOD and that he made everything so I can't deny the word of GOD.

Yes the bible is true. I just can't follow these crackpot scientes that says that everything comes form something and then turn around and say that in the beganing there was nothing and then out of no were the whole world is here. They are controdicting them selves like they are always doing. I am a strong believer in my GOD and there for I can not say that the WORD OF GOD is false.

[CryticX]

Double posting = noob...

anyway, I can't follow the whole "Evolution" subject, I don't know where they came up with it! are they stupid? Just keep on asking them where the ooze came from then where the crystal came from etc...they don't know, If they don't know it's not a logical or reasonable argument. A debate has to have proof and as far as I'm concerned neither side WILL get ANY proof so this is yet another failure at a attempt in persuading a third party.

[Ramrok]

LOOOL

i didnt think a thread as pointless as this existed here...

seriously... your (not addressed to anyone specific) debating with a bunch of youngsters and teenagers when in fact, both sides do not know enough to properly argue their side...

if you really want to speak to someone that knows what hes talking about... speak to a scientist and a church pastor or someone that actually knows how to best address your insecure questions... i personally know a christian scientist, so what does that tell you?!

its pointless arguing it here... but if you have nothing better to do, then carry on.

[Zaraki]

LOOOL

i didnt think a thread as pointless as this existed here...

seriously... your (not addressed to anyone specific) debating with a bunch of youngsters and teenagers when in fact, both sides do not know enough to properly argue their side...

if you really want to speak to someone that knows what hes talking about... speak to a scientist and a church pastor or someone that actually knows how to best address your insecure questions... i personally know a christian scientist, so what does that tell you?!

its pointless arguing it here... but if you have nothing better to do, then carry on.
hmm copy and paste

[JesiGash]

All more I have to say is this; If you deny the Bible, you deny it's author. So here's a question for you: if intelligent design is false, if God is false, or if the Bible (which is the Word of God) is false, then how can you explain water and life? By water and life I mean, the thing that ALL Life needs most/ is mostly made of is water. If Intelligent design doesn't exist (By which you claim if you say the Bible isn't true), then how come that the majority of this planet is made up of water? If science can explain that better than my God can (isn't going to happen ^^), then I will be impressed. The Bible explains questions like that and many other scientifical/mathematical formulas and theories that have been taken as MORE accurate than the standard metric system we use today.

For those of you who say that the Bbile could have been written by one guy... Brovo, you get a cookie. The Bible HAD many different authors, however, the authors were writing down the Word of God. The crazy thing about the Bible is that it was written by 40 some authors over a period of hundreds, if not thousands of, years; in several different countries on several different contenents and there is not ONE contradiction in the entire book. ^^ Human science has contradicted itself many a time. Beat that umpa steve, beat that ^^

[analogZero]

People exclude Christianity to allow themselves to indulge and do whatever they want, rather Christianity is another layer of moral...that's the way I see it, why remove the basis of the Bible in most countries? Because this allows idiots or rather morons (educated idiots) homosexuality, crime, abortion (poor babies)....So this is why I choose to support the Bible as it brings success to every country that accepts it as its basis, countries that used to be under the Bible that now are failing are US,UK etc.... don't lie to yourselves THEY ARE FAILING...I don't mean to sound unpatriotic but this is unacceptable.

the US was originally founded to keep religion separated from it's governing, from it's country, as a state unto it's own. It's now adopted religion as a means of support and I do agree that it's showing signs of strain.

[leshinor]

Well, I don't think religion has anything to do with a governments power! It might be influencing it a bit but still not enough...

[maan]

i absolutely know that the bible is the word of God and it's real..based on the scripture in 2 Timothy 3:16 says, "all scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It straightens us out and teaches us to do what is right."..

[Ramrok]

^^ well said, maan.

[soulten]

then how come that the majority of this planet is made up of water?

For those of you who say that the Bbile could have been written by one guy... Brovo, you get a cookie. The Bible HAD many different authors, however, the authors were writing down the Word of God. The crazy thing about the Bible is that it was written by 40 some authors over a period of hundreds, if not thousands of, years; in several different countries on several different contenents and there is not ONE contradiction in the entire book. ^^ Human science has contradicted itself many a time. Beat that umpa steve, beat that ^^

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_water_on_Earth

That's just means someone went out of their way editing the book.


i absolutely know that the bible is the word of God and it's real..based on the scripture in 2 Timothy 3:16 says, "all scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It straightens us out and teaches us to do what is right."..

That's retarded.
That would be like reading a book saying Aliens made the pyramids: the reason "I say so"

[Ramrok]

That's retarded.
That would be like reading a book saying Aliens made the pyramids: the reason "I say so"


yah or like believing what any author says in any other book... guess what... certain things in the bible have been proven by modern day science... just cuz ur school science teacher doesnt teach you that, doesnt make the bible fictional... its very much real.

[leshinor]

yah or like believing what any author says in any other book... guess what... certain things in the bible have been proven by modern day science... just cuz ur school science teacher doesnt teach you that, doesnt make the bible fictional... its very much real.

Yes but what soulten said was right. We cannot believe smth because the guy that mentioned it said it was right. So, we should not believe the Bible because one of the authors said it says the truth but because by logically thinking and processing what is written in it we came to the conclusion that it is true!

[Ramrok]

for hundreds of years people have believed it to be true... do you think this is the first time people have questioned it? why do you think it still prevails so strong... theres plenty of logical proof of the bible... you just have to accept it when you see it and not close yourself out if it may discomfort you.

[leshinor]

Yes but what soulten said was right. We cannot believe smth because the guy that mentioned it said it was right. So, we should not believe the Bible because one of the authors said it says the truth but because by logically thinking and processing what is written in it we came to the conclusion that it is true!

for hundreds of years people have believed it to be true... do you think this is the first time people have questioned it? why do you think it still prevails so strong... theres plenty of logical proof of the bible... you just have to accept it when you see it and not close yourself out if it may discomfort you.

We are actually supporting the same thing, that to believe in something it needs to be logical and since the Bible is, we can accept it!

[soulten]

yah or like believing what any author says in any other book... guess what... certain things in the bible have been proven by modern day science... just cuz ur school science teacher doesnt teach you that, doesnt make the bible fictional... its very much real.

for hundreds of years people have believed it to be true... do you think this is the first time people have questioned it? why do you think it still prevails so strong... theres plenty of logical proof of the bible... you just have to accept it when you see it and not close yourself out if it may discomfort you.

Mind sharing these certain things then? And if you give me an article to read I'm ignoring it.

Because anytime someone has thought differently they have been burned on a stake or killed in a war/ Seriously outnumbered/People unwilling to think differently?

I could say the same thing about you good sir(?). Would it discomfort you to not believe there is a higher power? To not know why stuff happens? To know people think you are wrong? Why can't you accept stuff just happens? Why does something/someone have to be behind everything? To make you feel like there is purpose? Maybe you should open your eyes instead of thinking others have them closed?

Or maybe people eyes are open, and while you see a world of black and whites others see it in shades of grey.

[Ramrok]

i dont think it would be too hard to show ur proof... but they most likely will be in articles... i guess you fear a change of heart, and your beliefs crumbling?! anyways i dont want to criticize you, but if you think you have proof against it... id like to see it, i probably wont mind reading an article... as long as it can make a good case, and not be a waste of time.

[soulten]

I've never read the bible or plan to, if you want to find such things google it.

[leshinor]

I've never read the bible or plan to, if you want to find such things google it.

Oh come one soulten. Why not read the Bible. I am not saying believe in it but you could at least read it out of curiosity to see what all these millions of ppl believe in. Besides, how can you be so strongly against a book you have never read?

[yukiyami]

I dunno if the bible is real or not... hmmmm. It is something to wonder about i mean it's an old boo ka nd has been re-written hundreds of times so it's deffinitely different from the original (if not it would be play-ger-ism.)

[brawler]

I believe that the bible was merely written to expatiation human lessons and sins over to a populace that ironically took them for truth instead of acquiring the morals from the story.

[soulten]

Oh come one soulten. Why not read the Bible. I am not saying believe in it but you could at least read it out of curiosity to see what all these millions of ppl believe in. Besides, how can you be so strongly against a book you have never read?

I'm not against it or anything in all honesty I just wanted to debate. I'll keep my real opinions and beliefs to myself.

I have a lot of books I'd rather read that come before reading the bible. I may read it some day but it's not a top priority. I have heard it's a good read.

[mellowguy]

The bible is this book in the hands of the people who persecuted us Jews for over a thousand years. That guy you worship, his ideas were twisted and used for corrupt and horrific purposes. Christianity's book has changed much over the years for it to be both a tool of murder and love everyone tome, and unless truth changes according to human whim, that means the bible is false.

[leshinor]

The bible is this book in the hands of the people who persecuted us Jews for over a thousand years. That guy you worship, his ideas were twisted and used for corrupt and horrific purposes. Christianity's book has changed much over the years for it to be both a tool of murder and love everyone tome, and unless truth changes according to human whim, that means the bible is false.

Well, there are many people do not believe in the Bible but I have never heard of one who thinks that Jesus' ideas were twisted!?! What part of teaching love is twisted???

The Bible does not promote murder and war. It was humans that used the Bible and started those things.

[Ramrok]

@yukiyami

no yukiyami... the bible has only been translated but the contents are the same... re-writing it is a big no no... and its not different from the original.

@soulten

lol how are you debating without your real oppinions and beliefs? wut u just make stuff up as you go? good one, now i know not to take it seriously.

fyi, the bible isnt easy to read if you plan to read it like a book... in fact, it would be very difficult to try to read it as a book... its not like trying to read a mathbook or something like any other book... its not ment to be just read from front to back... ask sum1 with more knowledgeable at church on how to best approach it cuz the bible isnt like a story with a start and a finish, so ud need to know how to read it.

@mellowguy

like leshinor said, the bible doesnt promoted war in the least... do not confuse it with other books such as the koran which teachings can be misused for acts of terrorism in the middle-east. no matter which perspective you look at the bible, theres nothing about its teachings that promotes war and violence in any way.

[mellowguy]

@Ramrok and Leshinor
I'm not saying that Jesus' views were twisted as in the adjective, but in the verb. How else could you have such things as the Spanish Inquisition, where all who doubted Christianity were put to death? Yes, humans twisted the ideas to put that institution in place. But that is exactly what I am saying: humans wrote the book, humans changed the book to do what they want, and now humans have changed the book back to what they think is the truth. The book has changed so dramatically in the last few hundred years that I think that the truth has been lost, replaced with what todays scholars hope is the truth.

[leshinor]

@Ramrok and Leshinor
I'm not saying that Jesus' views were twisted as in the adjective, but in the verb. How else could you have such things as the Spanish Inquisition, where all who doubted Christianity were put to death? Yes, humans twisted the ideas to put that institution in place. But that is exactly what I am saying: humans wrote the book, humans changed the book to do what they want, and now humans have changed the book back to what they think is the truth. The book has changed so dramatically in the last few hundred years that I think that the truth has been lost, replaced with what todays scholars hope is the truth.

Well, as far as I know the contents of the Bible have not been changed. There were things added, some writings that were discovered but that's it. The Church used its power to control people and do horrible things, I agree with that. But, that was because of the followers' ignorance. Jesus never ever promoted violence nor did He or any of the apostles said something that could have been misinterpreted as something like that. It was simply the Church making new 'rules' and claiming that it was the Lord's Will, which of course was totally wrong. So, you cannot blame the Bible. The ones at fault were the clergymen!

[Ramrok]

@mellowguy

the bible hasnt changed, mayb you got things confused but blaming whatever people did on the bible or christianity is false... before we talk about church, let me tell you something... 'the church' is not a building, its not something you can destroy... church is when 2 or more people gather in the name of god to praise him... a 'church ministry' or church building is what you might be reffering to when you go every sunday...

i just want to clarify some things... church doesnt do anything but praise god, it doesnt have power or control over anything... when the church does anything else that involves not praising god, it ceases to be a church... the proper blame should be addressed at the people misusing their religion or political power to do bad things "supposedly" in the name of church/religion/god w.e... when in fact it goes against those very same teachings...

now as far as the bible goes... humans didnt write the bible... they didnt write any of it... god dictated them the words to be put in the bible... changing anything in it is a sin... im not sure how translating the bible would impact its teachings, but u'd have to be a pretty bad translator if you could translate it and not maintain the same message.

[JesiGash]

I'm not against it or anything in all honesty I just wanted to debate. I'll keep my real opinions and beliefs to myself.

I have a lot of books I'd rather read that come before reading the bible. I may read it some day but it's not a top priority. I have heard it's a good read.

That's good. I like that response. Everyone wonders why the Bible has been debated so much. It is my personal opinion that the Bible is real, not only that, but it is MEANT to be debated and talked about. How better to spread the word that it exists? I claim only what I know to be true. The only way I can know those things are true is by studying and asking questions, and by believing they are true. Only way to know if it's true or not is by doing the research yourself then laying the information on the table and saying, "ok, what is really going on here?"

But I will debate as long as you like on the subject ^^

[mellowguy]

@leshinor and ramrok

You two are making me out to be a wonderfully ignorant idiot, but I must protest. I know that Jesus (as reported by his disciples) never put forth a message of violence. He never once wanted anyone to hurt anyone else, right? I also know that in the dark ages, the church was the massive power organization that ruled europe. They oppressed and murdered those who didn't believe. You can call that unchurchlike, but it was the church. I definitely recognize that people get power any way they can, but for a religion based on loving each other, there was an awful lot of hating going on. How did they get that authority? They changed what was written in the book to match what they wanted. That's what I am trying to say. They must have changed the book from your original truth to match what they wanted. Now, chronologically, that means that today, even though they've tried to change it back to peace and love, his original most true message was lost.

That's not even all that's wrong with bible. Take a look at current events. Does it not say in the bible somewhere, paraphrased heavily, that homosexuality is wrong? If Jesus was his father, and his father and he were all powerful, wouldn't he get that this would cause people to be persecuted and outcast from society down the line?

And what about the fact that the new testament was written by his disciples? Humans wrote that book. And I'm sorry, I'm just not accepting that god dictated the thing to them, lawyer to secretary style.

[leshinor]

@leshinor and ramrok

You two are making me out to be a wonderfully ignorant idiot, but I must protest. I know that Jesus (as reported by his disciples) never put forth a message of violence. He never once wanted anyone to hurt anyone else, right? I also know that in the dark ages, the church was the massive power organization that ruled europe. They oppressed and murdered those who didn't believe. You can call that unchurchlike, but it was the church. I definitely recognize that people get power any way they can, but for a religion based on loving each other, there was an awful lot of hating going on. How did they get that authority? They changed what was written in the book to match what they wanted. That's what I am trying to say. They must have changed the book from your original truth to match what they wanted. Now, chronologically, that means that today, even though they've tried to change it back to peace and love, his original most true message was lost.

That's not even all that's wrong with bible. Take a look at current events. Does it not say in the bible somewhere, paraphrased heavily, that homosexuality is wrong? If Jesus was his father, and his father and he were all powerful, wouldn't he get that this would cause people to be persecuted and outcast from society down the line?

And what about the fact that the new testament was written by his disciples? Humans wrote that book. And I'm sorry, I'm just not accepting that god dictated the thing to them, lawyer to secretary style.

Hahah! Sorry! We didn't try to make you look like a fool. If we did then I apologize.

Now, about middle age, I don't think the Bible was ever changed. Besides, don't we have the original scriptures? This really is a question, I don't know if we have, but I would guess we do. So, we know what the apostles wrote, without any changes.

About, the New Testament being written by His disciples, I have some doubts too of how much was the original teachings interpreted by them but it can't be that much. Some points might be a little bit different but he main ideas are the same! The Holy Spirit did inspire them to write the Bible but I don't believe It spelled it out for them!!! So, there might have been some room for personal opinion and interpretation from His students.

[soulten]

@soulten

lol how are you debating without your real oppinions and beliefs? wut u just make stuff up as you go? good one, now i know not to take it seriously.

fyi, the bible isnt easy to read if you plan to read it like a book... in fact, it would be very difficult to try to read it as a book... its not like trying to read a mathbook or something like any other book... its not ment to be just read from front to back... ask sum1 with more knowledgeable at church on how to best approach it cuz the bible isnt like a story with a start and a finish, so ud need to know how to read it.


Just because I'm not sharing my beliefs is no reason to not take me seriously. And I'm not making stuff up as I go. I go off what I know. You don't always argue with your real opinions and beliefs, like politicians.


Yeah not gonna happen. Besides that I never said I would read it like a book, and who reads a math book?

[CryticX]

What a stupid topic, everyone will still stick to their opinions in the end. It is impossible to "ease" the other side to believe in the Bible from a few words on an online forum.....humans are stubborn, get used to it. I will say I believe in the bible, but this is a dumb topic that won't get anywhere.

[leshinor]

What a stupid topic, everyone will still stick to their opinions in the end. It is impossible to "ease" the other side to believe in the Bible from a few words on an online forum.....humans are stubborn, get used to it. I will say I believe in the bible, but this is a dumb topic that won't get anywhere.

You might find it dump but I don't. I am not expecting many people to change their opinion just because they read some posts in an anime site of course. However, this thread can make people start thinking about it and reach a better conclusion after they give it some thought. Besides, it is better to debate and think about these stuff than not think at all.

[Ramrok]

@mellowguy

sry i dont mean to think of you as ignorant or an idiot...

the book was not changed... it is the same now as it was when it was written... the only difference it made in the middle ages-like era was that 'the people' ,not 'the church' ,was forcing its beliefs on others... there was no debate, or freedom of speech or such rights... people with political power and status forced their beliefs on others... the bible doesnt teach that, and while those people may have said that they were doing it in the name of god... it was indeed the wrong thing to do.

saying things like 'they must have changed the book or the must have changed this or that' are assumptions based on no facts... the bible has been preserved for centuries.

about homosexuality, lolz it is wrong... but some have chosen to embrace it even tho its against the bible... obviously people would look down on them... not only because the bible is against it, but also most peoples morale cannot accept it either... just because we look down on homosexuals doesnt mean, the bible should have accepted it so that homosexuals wouldnt be looked down upon.

we look down on killers and thieves... does that mean the bible should accept killers and thieves just so we dont look down on them? certainly not.

@soulten

lol you make no sence, your debating even tho its not your real oppinion and belief? even if your debating against them? wow... btw im debating with my real oppinions and beliefs, i wouldnt debate otherwise... i hope u now understand why i dont take u seriously... its like ur debating with a lie, when ur keeping the truth to urself... its just illogical.

about the math book, exactly my point... no1 reads a math book like any other book... its not intended to be read front to back... same thing goes with the bible.

[analogZero]

Math books are meant to be read front to back. they have logical progression so as not to leave the student left in a fog, but rather to guide them step by step to plausible conclusions...

[Ramrok]

no, math books arent meant to be read front to back... math books is made up of series of chapters teaching you certain things... most teachers in a sense dont even go chapter by chapter... they teach the chapters that they want their students to learn... the chapters (unlike stories) dont hinge on having to read them in order, for you to understand... each chapter teaches you its lesson without neccessarily having to rely previous chapters... in some cases you can even go back and forth thru chapters... depending on the method you choose to teach... your brain will have a difficult time taking in all the information if you simply plan on reading it front to back, thats why examples and principles are taught to make it easier to understand and put to practice...

the bible is similar in almost the same sense, it has its own chapters teaching you certain things... these chapters dont particularly hinge on each other and do not have to be read in succession from front to back... teaching you certain things may even require you to go back and forth thru chapters and gathering the information about the particular subject... the bible also provides you with examples and quotes to help you absorb the information easier and apply it to practice... it has songs, poems, quotes, and stories that can teach you things... so i can guarantee you its not just any other book that you can read front to back.

[soulten]

@soulten

lol you make no sence, your debating even tho its not your real oppinion and belief? even if your debating against them? wow... btw im debating with my real oppinions and beliefs, i wouldnt debate otherwise... i hope u now understand why i dont take u seriously... its like ur debating with a lie, when ur keeping the truth to urself... its just illogical.


Why do I have to reveal my real opinions of beliefs? I can't try to be on a different side then others and try to logically think from that point of view.

While I do decide to act like this, I make very sure that while I'm debating a side I think those are my beliefs and opinions. So while I'm saying the bible is fake I am saying this from a serious point of view of someone who believes so, and if I felt like giving my opinion on why it's real I would take it seriously. While I'm expressing these opinions I have no other beliefs then what I'm focusing on. That "lie" or "hidden truth" doesn't exist when I express these different opinions.

[Ramrok]

right, well w.e
sry if i still dont take u seriously...
there are only 2 sides to this debate... either you believe its real or you dont... what you say is what you believe... dont say things you dont honestly believe... what it seems like your trying to say is: that your saying the bible is fake when its not your real oppinion... which would only mean that your real oppinion is the opposite of what you say, meaning your real oppinion is that the bible is real... this could only mean that your a very confused individual or ur doing alot of talking for no apparent reason.

dont try to debate from someone else's point of view, thats just retarded... use ur own point of view with your own real oppinion and beliefs... if your saying the bible is fake when your real belief and oppinion says that the bible is real... it seems like ur debating against ur own real belief and oppinions... such a debate should normally take place in your own head, i believe they are called self doubts.

[soulten]

right, well w.e
sry if i still dont take u seriously...
there are only 2 sides to this debate... either you believe its real or you dont... what you say is what you believe... dont say things you dont honestly believe... what it seems like your trying to say is: that your saying the bible is fake when its not your real oppinion... which would only mean that your real oppinion is the opposite of what you say, meaning your real oppinion is that the bible is real... this could only mean that your a very confused individual or ur doing alot of talking for no apparent reason.

dont try to debate from someone else's point of view, thats just retarded... use ur own point of view with your own real oppinion and beliefs... if your saying the bible is fake when your real belief and oppinion says that the bible is real... it seems like ur debating against ur own real belief and oppinions... such a debate should normally take place in your own head, i believe they are called self doubts.

So it's not possible somethings in the bible are real while others could be exaggerated?

So I'm not allowed to try and try something new, see if I can prove myself wrong/prove my thoughts?
Put myself in someone's shoe for once?
Try to expand my way of thinking to accept a different way of thinking?
The only reason I would debate from the views of someone else is to see if I could.
I would like to respect all ways of thinking and the best way to do that is to put myself in their position and mind-set. See if I could think like that.

I'm sorry for being "retarded" I guess I'll just stop replying.

[Ramrok]

no, you shouldnt try something like that because it teaches nothing and its proves nothing, your misunderstanding the nature of a debate... if your beliefs are the same as mine, in that the bible is real, yet you joke around that it isnt only for the sake of debating... then your not actually debating... you cannot debate from someone elses point of view because there will be no time in which you will be able to acknowledge defeat or victory... if my argument triumphs over yours, your real beliefs are the same as mine therefore your real beliefs will stay the same as i have strengthend them with my triumph, but u will continuously try to put urself in the shoes of the opposing side regardless of the outcome of the argument... it will be an endless play, resulting in nothing but wasted time... what your doing is just playing around with the idea of a debate, when your in fact not actually debating.

if you had anything close to a concrete argument, your real belief will tell you its fake yet you post it anyways even tho your real belief already said its fake... theres nothing wrong with putting urself in someone else's shoes, or looking at things from someone else point of view... but thats just figuratively speaking for something that happens inside your head.

[soulten]

My beliefs are: I don't know. It could be real, parts of it could real, but all of it NO.

Is that a good enough answer for you?

And here's something you are misunderstanding; THIS IS NOT A DEBATE.

A debate comes down to something that can be proven, a defeat or victory can occur. What we are doing here is simply "I'm right cause I think so" vs. "I'm right cause I think so" There is nothing that can make it proven either way, therefore no one can be deemed victor.

I have just dismantled this "debate" with your own words.

Now with that said, this is not a debate and all you've said is therefore pointless is it not?

What I've been doing is throwing opinions of different perspectives then. I've said it once and I'll say it again, this doesn't belong in debate, nor does the "God is real thread". All we have is fact less un-provable opinions one after another.

[Ramrok]

um... this is a debate... just cuz u dont want to read my article doesnt mean i dont have proof... speak for urself, not for others... as far as im concerned... my side of the argument has been dominating and my response's have been fairly well put, am i wrong? i dont think theres a question here i havent been able to answer... so lets see wut ur side's got... wut makes u think the bible isnt real? your thoughts? feelings? do you have any proof? is there anything specific about it?

cmon, if you like to debate from the opposing point of view... what would the opposite side most likely reply with? put urself in their shoes, lol.

debate - a discussion involving opposing viewpoints.
debate - to engage in argument or discussion.

and yah, this is a debate.

[leshinor]

Supporting someone else's ideas is fine by me. If you are unsure about a subject you can argue with both sides until you are convinced by one party.

If this is the definition of a debate then this is a debate. Actually, if a debate required a conclusion to which everyone or at least the majority would agree upon then we would have very few debates. But, the definition is not the problem here. What you are debating (?) about is whether this thread can have decent arguments or is it pointless to try and convince the opposing party. Well, so far I have seen some proper arguments and points being made. So, if one side cannot counter the other sides arguments, then there you have your conclusion!

[Yue Osakur]

Sorry, just read the title. don't know if anyones already said this and if someone has, I'll say it again.

It's - JUST - A - BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK!! the Bible is nothing but a book of stories, lessions, and such to live by, writien BY people of the past. just morals like be a good person, and shareing and such.

Now I'm not tring to down it or speak negetive about it. but Come-on, there are so many vereations and edites to it that no one knows who right and who's wrong. Give it a break already.:dizzy: enough with the crap:mad:

PS. And would people stop with the killing people or converting people to their ways!!! just becaue someone dosen't think the same or act the same way you do dosen't mean you have to kill them off!!!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: It's wrong, it's wrong!! It's W_R_O_N_G!:pissed:

[leshinor]

Sorry, just read the title. don't know if anyones already said this and if someone has, I'll say it again.

It's - JUST - A - BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK!! the Bible is nothing but a book of stories, lessions, and such to live by, writien BY people of the past. just morals like be a good person, and shareing and such.

Now I'm not tring to down it or speak negetive about it. but Come-on, there are so many vereations and edites to it that no one knows who right and who's wrong. Give it a break already.:dizzy: enough with the crap:mad:

PS. And would people stop with the killing people or converting people to their ways!!! just becaue someone dosen't think the same or act the same way you do dosen't mean you have to kill them off!!!!! :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: It's wrong, it's wrong!! It's W_R_O_N_G!:pissed:

Umm, I guess you should have read the previous posts after all...
Nobody in here wants to kill the opposing party...
Furthermore, there are not any variations to the Bible.

[CryticX]

You might find it dump but I don't. I am not expecting many people to change their opinion just because they read some posts in an anime site of course. However, this thread can make people start thinking about it and reach a better conclusion after they give it some thought. Besides, it is better to debate and think about these stuff than not think at all.

Debate is trying to prove the other side wrong not necessarily making the opposing side believe their theologies. The only way you CAN make someone think is if they are wavering on the topic in the first place, not people who are firm on a belief such as you or myself. I believe in the Bible, it is impossible to try and make other people believe it. They don't believe it? one day they will see, then they're gonna wish they listened to an online forum. Conclusion can only be derived from proven fact, and the proven fact is that whatever country had the Bible as a TRUE standard, always succeeded. The Bible is also a moral compass, why do you think people hate the Bible so much? Because if they didn't have it, people can have homosexual relation, swear, have sex whenever, swear, steal, cheat...etc . People hate the Bible because it stops them, and they boil....simple as that. I don't plan to make you believe the Bible from my post, but perhaps those that are wavering or are in the middle will at least "think wisely and unbiased" . And this isn't called the "Debate and Think room" it's just Debate Room. But, from a debate people will think. Average time to make an Atheist believe the Bible is 10 years, so the odds are always against those who believe It. When I said it was dumb, I meant it's almost stupid trying to make the exact opposing force to believe the Bible, do you think an Atheist can make you waver from the Bible? me, NEVER. That is how they think about us, so it's dumb trying to throw arguments in the opposing direction. I only think people that are unsure about either side have the best chance to "think" and to come to a better conclusion.

[soulten]

um... this is a debate... just cuz u dont want to read my article doesnt mean i dont have proof... speak for urself, not for others... as far as im concerned... my side of the argument has been dominating and my response's have been fairly well put, am i wrong? i dont think theres a question here i havent been able to answer... so lets see wut ur side's got... wut makes u think the bible isnt real? your thoughts? feelings? do you have any proof? is there anything specific about it?


Fine give us your fucking article.

The reason you've been dominating, only 2-ish people have even tried to appose you. Congratulations you have seriously outnumbered the opposition till the point they said screw it. Bet you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

And I'll say this THE BIBLE IS REAL. But only if you consider it to be a record of history. The places are real, the people are real(mostly). But yet again like every other story over time many things could have been exaggerated.

In the 1850's, ancient texts were found which dated to pre-Christian times. As the years went on, thousands upon thousands more ancient writings were found. It wasn't until the 1920's that the first of the translated documents were publicly released. The texts prove to be the actual stories which the Bible was based on, and yet they are completely different from the Bible. How can the Bible be true if the stories don't match up with the original documents?

The work of destroying all other texts obviously didn't go over well enough because more ancient texts are even being found today. Some have been held onto by the Vatican for decades out of sight from the public eye. What are they trying to hide? Could it be the fact that the scriptures they hold are completely different from the Catholic Bible they live by? Indeed, many of the scriptures have been released and nothing in those scriptures say anything about Jesus being anything more than an ancient prophet. The scriptures say quite the opposite and there is much debate about who Jesus really was and his purpose in history. If Muhammad were found to be a fabled person, there would still be an Islamic faith. Hinduism has so many Gods that they wouldn't notice if one went missing. In the monotheistic faith of Christianity, if Jesus was found to not exist in the "Son of God" context, the entire faith would fall apart at the seams. Sounds like a reason for hiding texts to me!

Furthermore, there are not any variations to the Bible.

Wait isn't the most common one used to day the King James version? Then that would therefore mean there was a previous version.

[Ramrok]

well i think CryticX said it best... getting sum1 to believe you is very difficult... what we basically doing here is proving each other wrong... the side that does that the best, wins.

soulten, yes i do feel quite fuzzy indeed ^_^
about the variations of the bible... the versions of the bible are simply translations, the variations of the bible are not versions or translations but rather something slightly off course.

version =/= variation

the versions of the bible keep the contents and the message intact thru its translations
the variations of the bible can actually veer the contents and the message for other specific purposes

i hope you understand the difference between the two.

[mellowguy]

My last reply was already 2 pages behind, so I'll address what's current in a second.
@leshinor and ramrok
I'm really trying here to get understood this very important point. The people in control of the scriptures and the bible during the middle ages was the church that you ramrok declare wasn't a church anymore because they weren't just praising god (I believe that's what you said) This pseudo-church wanted to oppress those who were different, and they had the power to "re-interpret" the papers they had to align with their wants. They could have burned all the scripture they didn't believe in! We would never know, for their power was near absolute. What we do know is this: Jesus and his disciples never ever ever ever wanted or promoted or condoned or whatevered violence. They put their words that say that into a nice set of papers that would one day become the bible. During the middle ages, these papers were in the inventory of a church that condoned violence. Now, do you think they would allow anyone to argue another point? That's heresy! What would your next action be? If they weren't truly the church as you say they were, they would have no problem changing or burning what they didn't like about the bible to suit their needs. No matter how holy. That would make an awful lot of sense, and it is far more likely that they did that then just leaving the papers unaltered. They don't even really need to change much! just omit a couple lines about not stoning the homosexuals, or re-interpret a sentence in a language that no one really knew anymore except them into something a sentence more sinister. Their rule would have ended if they had no base in actual scripture, and since they ruled for hundreds of years, I have need to assume that they made some of these alterations. No matter how much we try to get the truth back, we have no way of knowing exactly what they changed or deleted, so the original truth is lost. Obviously, most of the more harmless stuff would be kept. Think of this though. So far as we know, the church of today is not one hundredth as bad as the medieval church, and they're hiding stuff from the public. What would the old church do?

Now for the current events: There is much debate over the point of debate (The laughter I feel in my heart is near bursting into a terse lol) when no one is going to end up changing sides. This is of course ludicrous. A debate is dialogue in which both sides come away with a better understanding of the topic at hand. At the very least, I now know the approximate strength of my opponents arguments, and in every other debate I've participated in I've come away understanding the issue at hand far better than I do now. It's a learning process, and a good one. Debates cause people to think, make logical connections, even their argumentative skills increase. It's the same argument for the does god exist thread. In that thread, I'm trying to prove that god exists, but to do that I need to show some very smart people an evident proof of a by definition unfathomable being. That's pretty difficult. I have to reevaluate all the conventional reasons to believe in order to find something tangible, and therefore, more true than the reasons I used to follow. Debates of this philosophical nature are extremely important, whether in an ancient greek amphitheater or a anime website forum.

[CryticX]

If you convince someone, please tell me. Do you think the opposing side will waver because some guy said the Bible was real or not? If they stand in their belief they won't. The only thing they'll think about is how to kick your ass in the debate next time, if they are serious about their belief. Yes, the only thing I noticed thinking about in a debate is the rebuttle .

[Ramrok]

@mellowguy

lol i think you misunderstood what i meant by church... let me put it in different words... church is not a physical tangible thing... its not a building... church is when 2 or more people gather to praise the name of god... usually these people gather in a church building or church ministry (which the majority of the people call church anyways)... but even if the church building or church ministry was destroyed, it doesnt mean they cant have church anymore... doesnt mean that the church was destroyed... let me use an analogy... church is like a picnic... you cant destroy picnic... you can destroy the picnic table, the chairs, the food, the barbeque... but picnic itself, like church is kinda like an event... hope this made it easier for you to understand.

when people cause war or violence in the name of god... they are not actually doing it in the name of god... they are not particularly a church, but a group of people who simply use church or god as motive for their evil deeds. if i go out and kill people in the name of god, do u think id actually be doing it in his name? no, just cuz i say im doing it in his name doesnt mean i am... actions speak louder then words... and when you go do something that is against god teachings, even if you say you are... then in actuality your not really doing it in his name.

around the age when jesus walked the earth... the old testament already existed for the most part... the new testament and the rest of the bible has been later developped... and by developped i mean surfaced or released out in the open for the public... its not like they wrote it and immediately gave it to the nearest church ministry, because as you would speculate... they would tear it up, rewrite it and so forth... they must have had a more subtle way of putting the new and old testament together and this would most likely have taken a few years time... the diciples and their predeccessors must have had to ensure that the contents staid intact, the message and its translation the same...

at that time maybe they didnt know that around the present times, concrete proof would make such an impact, thats why only a couple decades and centuries ago did we start looking for hard proof and evidence and with our more advanced technology able to still uncover proof.

[analogZero]

no, math books arent meant to be read front to back... math books is made up of series of chapters teaching you certain things... most teachers in a sense dont even go chapter by chapter... they teach the chapters that they want their students to learn...

ok, don't confuse what's written with the teaching method. Math books rely on progression from the basics to the more advanced. That's why you learn addition before multiplication before binomial theorems. A teacher's job is to utilize the text to make the lessons work to the student's benefit and if that means they jump around then they do so, it's at their discretion. What a teacher won't do is teach you something if you don't have any foundation for it. I rarely teachers skip from the front of a text to the back and then return to the middle, etc. At best I would only see chapters dropped, because they would usually be rather irrelevant, understood by another chapter of the book, or explained in a few minutes of lecture.
If the bible is just a clod of information about God then wouldn't it make sense to put it in some sort of order? That maybe, if God decided to intervene with a best selling novel, maybe he'd make it so that it's not just randomness, like some choose your own adventure where you have to skip back and forth to cover what's going on. Most things have order for a reason. If someone opened the bible and started reading, would you honestly tell them they're reading it wrong because they're not reading it the way you were taught?
"just throw the stories in there, people will get the jist of it."
-God, in a letter to his editor

[mellowguy]

@Ramrok
I'm getting a bit tired, and not because it's late. Listen, I never ever ever ever ever say that the bible wants violence. The people who have the bible do however sometimes want to manipulate it to their own ends. Hard proof is nice, but how much proof was lost? We don't know. You haven't answered my main point: The middle ages changed the bible. Even if we get 90% of the data back, we'll still have 10% that could change the truth entirely. And I have no doubt in my mind that the church of the middle ages changed the bible to their own ends. Since we cannot get all of the truth back (they burned documents, or the pages just dissolved on their own over time, it has been thousands of years), some of the original truth is lost, and we can't find everything they changed. So the bible is not true. The end.

[LianaV]

If you convince someone, please tell me. Do you think the opposing side will waver because some guy said the Bible was real or not? If they stand in their belief they won't. The only thing they'll think about is how to kick your ass in the debate next time, if they are serious about their belief. Yes, the only thing I noticed thinking about in a debate is the rebuttle .

It's not about converting your belief into my belief, its about planting that seed of doubt, doubt that maybe these crazy God believers aren't so crazy after all, or maybe you are so skeptical that you pick up a Bible or sit in a church, or talk to a believer and suddenly you begin questioning your ideals, not that you are wrong or stupid or hard headed, just that you needed to be told so many times before, or you weren't going through a situation that you needed God and now, as a last resort you turn to Him to see if it works.

[LianaV]

@Ramrok
I'm getting a bit tired, and not because it's late. Listen, I never ever ever ever ever say that the bible wants violence. The people who have the bible do however sometimes want to manipulate it to their own ends. Hard proof is nice, but how much proof was lost? We don't know. You haven't answered my main point: The middle ages changed the bible. Even if we get 90% of the data back, we'll still have 10% that could change the truth entirely. And I have no doubt in my mind that the church of the middle ages changed the bible to their own ends. Since we cannot get all of the truth back (they burned documents, or the pages just dissolved on their own over time, it has been thousands of years), some of the original truth is lost, and we can't find everything they changed. So the bible is not true. The end.

In Genesis 14:18-20 a guy named Melchizedeck is mentioned, more then a thousand years later in Psalms 110:4 Melchizedeck and his story is mentioned again, a 1000 yrs after Psalms was written in Hebrews 5:1-6 Melchizedeck story was mentioned again. How is it that his story is retold with a period of a 1000 yrs or more between each writing? The story is not altered, nor inconsistent...the authors of those verses were given the wisdom from God, to write whatever needed to be written, that is how I know the Bible is real.

[Ramrok]

@analogZero

actually, i dont know how you learned math... but my grade 2 mathbook didnt have the teachings of both addition and multiplication, only multiplication... i learned addition in grade 1... so for me its 2 separate books... anyways stop trying to go off topic, and try to understand the fundamentals of the bible im telling you.

i was using a mathbook as an example, to make it easier to understand... your just overthinking things, try to understand the message please and dont waste too much time on pointless arguments.

@mellowguy

the bible cannot be manipulated to anyones ends but gods... when people try to manipulate it for their ends, it ends up going against the bible.
no1 said proof was lost... not sure who said this but ill try to quote them "absence of proof is not proof of absence"... in short, further proof may yet to be discovered... just because enough proof to satisfy you may not have been found yet, doesnt mean that in the near future we will not find it.

if you look at the majority of christians these days... they dont even need proof to believe... that is what religion is... not everything comes in a formula.

@LianaV

well said, lol.

[soulten]

In Genesis 14:18-20 a guy named Melchizedeck is mentioned, more then a thousand years later in Psalms 110:4 Melchizedeck and his story is mentioned again, a 1000 yrs after Psalms was written in Hebrews 5:1-6 Melchizedeck story was mentioned again. How is it that his story is retold with a period of a 1000 yrs or more between each writing? The story is not altered, nor inconsistent...the authors of those verses were given the wisdom from God, to write whatever needed to be written, that is how I know the Bible is real.

Did you ever think, as I mentioned in my last post, that the story in Genesis was already screwed up from the very original(if there is one)? The bible was made not to explain and go upon the faith(still a main purpose) but in old times to outshine the other faiths(pagan). Such as the holidays where made to be close to other days of pagan holidays why? To interfere with Pagans.

[CryticX]

It's not about converting your belief into my belief, its about planting that seed of doubt, doubt that maybe these crazy God believers aren't so crazy after all, or maybe you are so skeptical that you pick up a Bible or sit in a church, or talk to a believer and suddenly you begin questioning your ideals, not that you are wrong or stupid or hard headed, just that you needed to be told so many times before, or you weren't going through a situation that you needed God and now, as a last resort you turn to Him to see if it works.

All I was saying is that if you are firm on a belief you wouldn't LET someone "plant" a so called "seed", you would argue it, until you can't anymore THEN you will think BECAUSE you are wavering on that topic and that MAYBE you are wrong. I hate writing huge paragraph's, it really makes me feel nerdy....

[analogZero]

@ ramrok

if you read the whole thing, rather than what pleases you, you'll notice that it ties into the bible and your page flipping approach to it. that's all I wanted to get across. no topic lost.

[mellowguy]

Somehow, although I've been trying to get this point across for several posts now, I still cannot get my message clear.
@Ramrok So they can't change the bible, because that would be against the bible, but they can do the exact opposite of what the bible wants them to do? That's ok?
@LianaV you are quoting the same story from different parts of the same bible. They could have changed it for all three, we don't know. Plus, I did say that they didn't need to change all of it, just what they wanted. Think of it this way: a carver turning a branch into a stake. Some wood is lost in shavings that are blown away, but the remainder, although the same wood cells that they started out with, are in the shape of a stake. The carver doesn't change each millimeter of that piece of wood; he doesn't have to. All he needs to do is get rid of what he doesn't need. Now the medieval church is the carver. They want a device to put forth their own ends, mainly world domination and elimination of disbelievers. They have a bible that forbids them to do this. What do they do?

[Ramrok]

well mellowguy... they can do whatever they want... the bible teaches them, but its their choice to do what they want, no1s forcing people into anything... wether its going against the bible or not... its totaly up to whoever... but if your going against the bibles teachings, then its best you dont claim that your doing things in its name or anything like that.

[leshinor]

Sorry for the long absence!!! The thread really changed in 2 days huh!?! :serious:

@mellowguy
I understand your point. There is a way though to know if the church did change the Bible or not. By using scientific methods we can find out how old the original Bible is. If it is about 2000 years then there is no reason to be concerned, but if it is something like 300 years then it is really bad...
I do not know if an investigation ever took place... I guess it would. Now, of course the church could have hided the truth again so there is no rael way of finding out...

@analogZero and Ramrok
Okay the math book argument has gone far enough. It was just an example.
What Ramrok is trying to say is that the Bible is not a novel you can just read. It is hard to really understand what it means. After 2000 years and we still don't quite get everything. It has some deeper meanings that you will need help with to understand.

@CryticX
Even though I do quite strongly believe there is a God and it probably is the God Jesus described, I am not claiming that I might never become an atheist. If an atheist manages to overpower me completely then I will have to believe in him. Of course I will need to consult people that are believing in God and have thought about it more than I have. What I am trying to say is that even though I believe strongly in Christ, there is still a possibility that I am wrong. Do you believe you could never be wrong about that???

[CryticX]

@CryticX
Even though I do quite strongly believe there is a God and it probably is the God Jesus described, I am not claiming that I might never become an atheist. If an atheist manages to overpower me completely then I will have to believe in him. Of course I will need to consult people that are believing in God and have thought about it more than I have. What I am trying to say is that even though I believe strongly in Christ, there is still a possibility that I am wrong. Do you believe you could never be wrong about that???

as I said....
All I was saying is that if you are firm on a belief you wouldn't LET someone "plant" a so called "seed", you would argue it, until you can't anymore THEN you will think BECAUSE you are wavering on that topic and that MAYBE you are wrong.

[leshinor]

as I said....
All I was saying is that if you are firm on a belief you wouldn't LET someone "plant" a so called "seed", you would argue it, until you can't anymore THEN you will think BECAUSE you are wavering on that topic and that MAYBE you are wrong.

Well that so called "seed" is doubt and I have that, even if it might be small...

[CryticX]

That's where me and you differ.

[blood zero]

nope i dont believe in the bible god or hell none of that theres no proof the people make other people believe its true

[mellowguy]

well mellowguy... they can do whatever they want... the bible teaches them, but its their choice to do what they want, no1s forcing people into anything... wether its going against the bible or not... its totaly up to whoever... but if your going against the bibles teachings, then its best you dont claim that your doing things in its name or anything like that.

Maybe you don't believe that the bible can be changed? The church of the old days used violence to put fear into the hearts of the "heretics." They're priests. They study the bible every bloody day. With so much in the bible concerning the horrors of violence, how did they manage to become such horrors themselves? A guy came in who wanted to kill nonbelievers. He gains power, then asks the other priests to support him in killing them off. They say what? The bible doesn't say that we should do that! How the hell does violence ever gain a foothold? We know it does, we have enough evidence of that. The only way someone could have gotten the priests to pick up oppression is if they were able to change or mistranslate or whatever the bible into teaching what it wanted them to teach. Once the change has been made, if they don't save the original version, the truth, the real truth, is lost. And these men of violence, I don't think they were too good at keeping undermining paperwork in legible condition. We can find hundreds of thousands of fragments from 2000 years ago and never find the one that they burned that read: "And the Lord Jesus Christ did say, "Let he who has lied down with another man be as well received as those who lie with women." We'll never know.

I've been restating this point so many times that I'm starting to get exasperated. I apologize for taking up so much space to try to get this one point across.

[Ramrok]

well the point you dont seem to be getting is that the actions of people dont neccessarily reflect the bibles teachings... if a priest starts shooting people, that is no reason to say that the bible isnt real, that the teachings are wrong or falsified, that his actions were driven by the bible... the priest and every person is free to do what they want, wether its to go against the bible or abide by it... but your actions are the ones that will tell the story... if priests started spreading the violence, then they were going against the bible and its teachings... them being priests does not justify their actions even if they claim they are doing it in the name of god. you seem to be the onlyone not getting this.

the bible was entrusted thru to the people of god, his disciples who were trusted to ensure that as the word of the bible and its message grows and spreads, that it will stay correct, true and unchanged... they were trusted to make sure that people dont make changes in any way so as to not loose any meanings of the message.

[mellowguy]

You just don't think that it can be changed. I don't want to argue this point anymore, but I'm going to finish what I started. Listen closely, because this is the fifth or sixth time:

The church is the group of people that, aside from praising god and such, study the bible to better interpret it's truths, right?
This statement was even more true during the 1400s, when the Spanish Inquisition was underway.
Somehow, the church of the time was violent and cruel and unjust, totally against most of the truths of the bible.
Now, from what I've gathered, Ramrok says that those actions are theirs and do not reflect the teachings of the bible. My point is merely that the logical manipulations of the ruling class- which was in this case, the church. The priests of the time were bound by the bible's rules yes, but they were also the rulers of most of Europe. Since we know they weren't following the bible, we know they didn't have the respect for it that a true Christian would have. So what does any despot do when he wants to get more powers that the current rules don't allow him to have? He changes the rules. For such a sensitive thing as the bible, he'd be a bit sneakier about it, but he'd get it done, he has the power to do so. The bible wasn't the sacred thing then that it is now, it was also a powerful political tool. So forward to today, we don't know what's sacred and what's tool anymore.

[Ramrok]

the bible is as sacred as it was back in the day, if not more sacred for the bible was enough to believe back then whereas today more proof is needed for the general public... there were many churches, many people with bibles... you cant expect to change anything and people not noticing... not when half the world is looking at the same book... the bibles contents has been kept intact thruout history by people not only who were originally assigned to, but also by the believers of the bible who majority lived their lives based on it. ur just desperate to try to find dirt, clawing for reasons to discredit the bible.

[CryticX]

I am one of those people that believe the Bible, I am a two face to my church and everybody, but I am still a believer. I still have to argue that Bible is an important part of society, whether it was real or not? That's for you to decide, and I'm finished arguing because people will always be stubborn. It was never disproved historically and it never will be, case closed, the Bible is at LEAST a historic fact/reality. Revelation? now that's another debate topic, will it come? We shall see (with Obama I don't know).

[mellowguy]

Ramrok, I've been trying to prove the same reason for the last 6 posts, I have no reason to dig in the dirt for more. I don't think I can ever get you to understand the point, for the intensity of your belief has left you somewhat blind to the manipulation of power. (I mean seriously, do you think they have the printing system that we have now? Even the most popular book of the world at the time was not in the hands of anyone who would have been able to debate the changes)

You see, your only defense that I've heard so far is that god dictated it to disciples, which put the words in a holy book, that's so holy that no one can change it. First, tell me if that's true.

Meanwhile, I got to read me a bible again. I have the so called "old-testament" but you christians have some new fangled thing that you're all in a tizzy about.
In an hour (on the 12th of April), read the next sentence:
Happy Easter!

[Inuyasha50]

I say that the Bible is real, but, that does not mean it isn't fake either, because we can't prove that this happened that long ago, just like we can't prove that there are "Gods" out there watching over us.

[leshinor]

Well I must say my beliefs have been changing lately. I find myself to belive in the New Testament and not that much in the Old one...

About mellow's point: he/she is saying that the priests in Middle Age might have written a new Bible that presents their ideas. After Middle Age, the Church might have tried to restore the original Bible but maybe some documents were lost... this is what you are saying right?

[BoneTosser]

I noticed while catching up on this thread that many people don't think the bible promotes violence. That is a false belief. Look up the following verses yourself if you think I lie.

Human Sacrifice
"Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1-18)

Leviticus 27:28-29 "Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death."

Rape
Judges 21:10-24 NLT) So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan. The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

Numbers 31:7-18 NLT)
They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.


Murder
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
AS you might have guessed I know my bible well.

[CryticX]

Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

......I LOL'd and yes good job on the Bible knowledge.

[lilmic]

well all i can say is its based on your beliefs you believe its real its real if not then it isnt im wiccan and i practice witch craft so in other wise look in wiccan history christianity takes a toll from us

[BoneTosser]

......I LOL'd and yes good job on the Bible knowledge.

Funny thing about this is I'm not a Christian. I'm a pagan........ Maybe I should let every one in on why Christmas is celebrated in December. Here's a hint, it has nothing to do with the birth of Christ.

[CryticX]

I knew it wasn't in December but it's better then celebrating the old Roman "incense to the gods" tradition. I hate Santa, what a lame-ass story about a gay pedophilic old man giving "toys" to little children, I swear it's Michael Jackson.

[BoneTosser]

ALL Christian holidays are corruptions of pagan holy days. Christmas = Winter Solstice
Easter = Ishtar, a Babylonian Goddess of the Heavens, had a son who was believed to be resurrected from an egg that fell from the sky. The Easter Bunny, Is a corruption of a pagan fertility symbol. Mix all this together, give it new meanings and history, and you have Easter.
Valentines Day =Valentine's day began as a pagan fertility rite celebrated with drunkenness and sexual license during which time sweets and springflowers were given as sacrifices to the gods in the temple.

After I found out all of this information I realized that The Bible was a retelling of most every pagan story. Different characters, different places, different time, [U]SAME[U/] stories. Knowing that, how can anyone believe in The Bible.

[SmokedBoo]

Funny thing about this is I'm not a Christian. I'm a pagan........ Maybe I should let every one in on why Christmas is celebrated in December. Here's a hint, it has nothing to do with the birth of Christ.



Nimrod, the grandson of Noah, became the first king known as Sargon I. He built Babylon and Nineveh. Being warlike, he wore a type of helmet with a horn in the front; a trait inherited by the druid Vikings of the Celts, descendants of the Assyrian line.

Nimrod means "tyrant". He led the Sumerians of Babylon to pay tribute to the skies (sun, moon, stars, and planets) with the sacrifice of their children. The Tower of Babel was built for this purpose, echoed in other cultures such as the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas. Since the head of this government was such an idolatrous tyrant, Shem (Nimrod's uncle) killed him. Nimrod's mother, Semiramis, consoled the people by making them believe the child she carried was Nimrod "reincarnated"

-- And named him "Duzu" (Tammuz), Babylonian for the son who rises. This Duzu went into the groves (forests) and placed a gift on a tree to honor Nimrod each year at the winter solstice. It has been said that Duzu was the offspring of Nimrod, who mated with his mother. Nimrod became known as Baal, meaning LORD, and was worshipped by the Babylonians as the sun in the sky -- thus the origin of "going to the heavens" at death.

Trees and branches became symbols of Nimrod. Because Nimrod was "cut down" by Shem, a tree stump became a place of honoring him. Thus, the Hebrew Scriptures speak of the pagans going into the "groves", and bringing a "branch to the nose", and going into the forest and cutting down a tree, decorating it, and propping it up a so that it will not totter. The winter solstice was the time when the sun was thought to be "reborn", so December 25th was celebrated as Baal's (Nimrod's) birthday. By tradition, the artificial idea of a New Year following this birthday celebration became an integral part of every human culture, based on this pagan idolatry. Generally, all mankind is fast asleep, dreaming this old Babylonian dream.

Christmas is an attempt by Catholicism to revise and adopt this paganism. In the year 525, a Scythian monk named Dionysius Exiguus visited Rome. He witnessed the ancient pagan celebration of the winter solstice (then called Paganalia or Saturnalia), and this offended his devout sensibilities. Scripture itself demands that we observe the Messiah's death, not His birth. But, since the pagan mind was so oriented around fertility and birth, it developed the way we see it today, blending the most important features of pagan interpretation. "Babel, the Great Mother of Harlots and of the Abominations of the Earth" -- has intoxicated the masses, and she herself is drunk with the blood of the set-apart ones.

What is her name? It's Easter! Semiramis, Nimrod's mother, became known as "Magna Mater", the "Great Mother", and was worship-ped as Mother Earth. The Sun "mated" with the Earth each spring, and the

"Rites of Spring" symbolized by the "May Pole" and "Easter" came 9 moons/months before the December 25th "birth" of the winter Sun. Her Assyrian name, Ishtar, gives us the word "Easter". The Romans called

her Astarte, and the Phoenicians used Asherah. The Hebrews called her Astoroth, the consort of Baal. Her emblem is the flower of the lily. She is the "goddess of the dawn", and her statue stands on a bridge in France. The French made a colossus of this image, and it now stands in New York Harbor, facing "East" -- in itself a word referring to the rising son/sun -- from which her name springs!

Full, true story, and I am a Christian. Another, um, "religious" time of the year that coincides with this is the Forty Days of Lent, which are the Forty Days of Weeping for Tammuz. I don't celebrate any holiday, nor do i take part in Christmas or Easter as they are Pagan and have absolutely nothing to do with God or Christ. The Bible is true, just mankind has tampered with the word and created their own version(s) to better suit their hearts.

[lilmic]

nice way to put it Boo thus it is a proclimation of the bible that was written by Socraties a Greek poet in Athens who later died after makeing his last epic story about hermies the great thus GOD, ALLAH, and or YALLAHWEI is just an element of force to us WICCANS and a funny fact is the bible was once a fairy tale told to children in ROMAN times although it became known as the first book ever created in the world lol back then NICKOLAS FLAMELL was discovering that ALCHEMY was consisted of elements and natural orders of the blance of the world

[mellowguy]

ok, leshinor understands. Enough for me.

The Torah would be free of this pagan connection though. All of our holidays are pretty solid. So at least I can say that half the bible is true, unless they changed the old testament from it's roots.

[CryticX]

Ok then, debate finished? let's go home and have a merry slice of cake, shall we? As my buddies I'll treat you!

[starscream]

Yeah the Bible is real. I've seen one.

[CryticX]

Best response ever....I wonder how long it took you to figure that one out...lol

[lilmic]

his whole life maybe im juas kidding star dont go hulk on me but i dont wanna rip any britches today i did enough for now lol

[SmokedBoo]

nice way to put it Boo thus it is a proclimation of the bible that was written by Socraties a Greek poet in Athens who later died after makeing his last epic story about hermies the great thus GOD, ALLAH, and or YALLAHWEI is just an element of force to us WICCANS and a funny fact is the bible was once a fairy tale told to children in ROMAN times although it became known as the first book ever created in the world lol back then NICKOLAS FLAMELL was discovering that ALCHEMY was consisted of elements and natural orders of the blance of the world

Where in the hell did you get Socraties mixed in all this? Whose to say that God is fake and Wicca is real, or vice versa? The Bible was not a fairy tale, it was, and still is, the truth. I should tell you that if this is an attempted to be sarcastic then you, child are doing a very poor job of it.

[lilmic]

WHAT THE HELL BOO not here look i pay attention in history and it was a fairytale long ago in time it was the FIRST I REPEATE FIRST BOOK THAT WAS CREATED (asside from Genji japanese romance novel) i wasnt saying that it wasnt real i no its real i used to be christian for crying out loud

[leshinor]

Alright then. Shall I share my current thoughts with everyone?
I believe that the Old and the New Testament cannot be talking about the same "God". In the Old Testament, God is presented more..... 'violent' than in the New Testament. In the Old Testament He orders people to kill others and violently oppose non-believers sometimes. However, in the New Testament, God is presented as a totally Good Being that will not mess into human affairs that much and instead will be waiting for humans to approach Him. He is loving and caring and will forgive everyone if they repent...
So, here comes the first question, do you believe the Old and the New Testament to be describing God in the same way or should they be separated?

[SmokedBoo]

WHAT THE HELL BOO not here look i pay attention in history and it was a fairytale long ago in time it was the FIRST I REPEATE FIRST BOOK THAT WAS CREATED (asside from Genji japanese romance novel) i wasnt saying that it wasnt real i no its real i used to be christian for crying out loud

I wasn't provoking you, nor was I trying to start anything. This is a debate thread and it can get pretty nasty in here. You stated your view, I fired back. Welcome to the debate forum.

@leshinor (forgot the multi-quote>.>;;)
If you actually read the versus after those were God came off as violent you would see exactly why he acted the way he did. It seems that you're only taken one verse and saying that this shows God to be a violent God. Which is why there are versus following that one verse explaining God's actions.

[starscream]

If you really want to get into it the bible that we all know about isn't real. At least not completely because some of the books were dropped when the Church took over. They are called the Apocraphy. With those books added then yes the bible would be real.

[wi_sam]

The Torah was the first book which came with the first major religion that God sent to us humans with his -human- prophets. In this case Moses.
People did not and could not accept it but eventually with all the miracles they started to belive, but then again humans are sinners, they found ways to go around the commandments and taboos, they misused the words of God hence Judiams wasn't a flowless religion nor was the Torah.

So God desided to evade and cover these flows and give humans a stronger more acceptable teachings. For people evolve as time goes by.

Christianity was created, the Bible was it's book and Jesus is the -human again- prophet.
The same thing happend again, wars were raged in the name of God and religion between those -jew- who did not accept Christianity as the new religion of their God.
And over the time the Bible has been faked, lost, rewritten and misunderstood on purpose, by those -and i do NOT spesficly mean the jew-humans who used the name of God to justify their actions.

So again God have sent his Last and final religion Islam, with his -also human- prophet Muhammad .... and the final book was Quran .... and again wars are raging .......

I have not add any single word from my imagination, and if you did some research about these three major religions you will see that every thing will
fit into place.

So it is real, but we don't know if it was the same book with the same teachings that was sent from God at that time ...

[fuzzypuppy]

I believe that if a person believes it to be real then it is real. We(society) give power to things by believing that they are real. We give them their existence and their meaning. I personally don't believe in the Bible, but I do recognize that most of the major religions out there have the same basic undertones to them, so there's something to them somewhere. I also am willing to admit that I'm human and there for may not be right.

[CryticX]

@leshinor

I believe that the God was the same, because wouldn't the Jesus sacrifice explain how his anger was dulled? The old testament describes Jesus as well, so I think there was the same God except he had no ultimate sacrifice to put his flame out, he had to stick with tiny animals, so God had to be sacrificed (Jesus). It explains it pretty well, I am just a theorist and hypothesion nothing else so human error is not out of boundry.

[mellowguy]

The Torah was the first book which came with the first major religion that God sent to us humans with his -human- prophets. In this case Moses.
People did not and could not accept it but eventually with all the miracles they started to belive, but then again humans are sinners, they found ways to go around the commandments and taboos, they misused the words of God hence Judiams wasn't a flowless religion nor was the Torah.

So God desided to evade and cover these flows and give humans a stronger more acceptable teachings. For people evolve as time goes by.

Christianity was created, the Bible was it's book and Jesus is the -human again- prophet.
The same thing happend again, wars were raged in the name of God and religion between those -jew- who did not accept Christianity as the new religion of their God.
And over the time the Bible has been faked, lost, rewritten and misunderstood on purpose, by those -and i do NOT spesficly mean the jew-humans who used the name of God to justify their actions.

So again God have sent his Last and final religion Islam, with his -also human- prophet Muhammad .... and the final book was Quran .... and again wars are raging .......

I have not add any single word from my imagination, and if you did some research about these three major religions you will see that every thing will
fit into place.

So it is real, but we don't know if it was the same book with the same teachings that was sent from God at that time ...

It's an interesting theory, but in the name of defending the my people, I can't agree. The Torah, for all it's complexity, was pretty simple- be good or we will get you. If you were raised Jewish, the laws were applied since birth. You cannot say that the religion is flawed because people "circumvented" the rules. That's just flawed people, and they are everywhere. (by the way, what is your definition of prophet, for Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were pretty chatty with God and and it's angels, being founding fathers of Judaism and all.)

I suppose maybe the reason Christianity was created was that a Jew accidentally ate bacon and said: "Holy beep, why can't we eat this?" Not to insult any Christians; tis a joke.

I think the theory could be reworked saying that humans thought that the current religion wasn't like what they wanted in a religion, so they found a new one to follow.

[wi_sam]

@leshinor

I believe that the God was the same, because wouldn't the Jesus sacrifice explain how his anger was dulled? The old testament describes Jesus as well, so I think there was the same God except he had no ultimate sacrifice to put his flame out, he had to stick with tiny animals, so God had to be sacrificed (Jesus). It explains it pretty well, I am just a theorist and hypothesion nothing else so human error is not out of boundry.

So, let me get this straight even though I'm getting out of the subject ... Christianity state that Jesus is God, son of God or just a mare human prophet who's like the rest of the previous and later prophets has been armed with miracles to give people more reasons to belive in god(THE God) who made him (as in Jesus) .... ???

[sammarai]

yes the bible is real

[CryticX]

@wi

Ever heard of the trinity? Research it.

[analogZero]

ALL Christian holidays are corruptions of pagan holy days. Christmas = Winter Solstice
Easter = Ishtar, a Babylonian Goddess of the Heavens, had a son who was believed to be resurrected from an egg that fell from the sky. The Easter Bunny, Is a corruption of a pagan fertility symbol. Mix all this together, give it new meanings and history, and you have Easter.
Valentines Day =Valentine's day began as a pagan fertility rite celebrated with drunkenness and sexual license during which time sweets and springflowers were given as sacrifices to the gods in the temple.

After I found out all of this information I realized that The Bible was a retelling of most every pagan story. Different characters, different places, different time, [U]SAME[U/] stories. Knowing that, how can anyone believe in The Bible.

you should mention the relevance of the cross in relation to the cross of the zodiac while you're at it.

I knew it wasn't in December but it's better then celebrating the old Roman "incense to the gods" tradition. I hate Santa, what a lame-ass story about a gay pedophilic old man giving "toys" to little children, I swear it's Michael Jackson.

I've determined that santa is in fact a vampire. he only comes out at night. for him, the younger the better (nothing beats fresh, virgin blood). he lives in a place where it's predominantly night for an extended period of time. I could go on.

Alright then. Shall I share my current thoughts with everyone?
I believe that the Old and the New Testament cannot be talking about the same "God". In the Old Testament, God is presented more..... 'violent' than in the New Testament. In the Old Testament He orders people to kill others and violently oppose non-believers sometimes. However, in the New Testament, God is presented as a totally Good Being that will not mess into human affairs that much and instead will be waiting for humans to approach Him. He is loving and caring and will forgive everyone if they repent...
So, here comes the first question, do you believe the Old and the New Testament to be describing God in the same way or should they be separated?

True punishment is in the heart of a man who can't forgive himself. no punishment can outweigh the burden of guilt. This is why it's important to repent your wrong doings, it's the sign of admitting your mistakes and moving on in life.
"Jules, did you ever hear the philosophy that once a man admits that he’s wrong that he is immediately forgiven for all wrongdoings?"
-vincent vega, pulp fiction

[leshinor]

True punishment is in the heart of a man who can't forgive himself. no punishment can outweigh the burden of guilt. This is why it's important to repent your wrong doings, it's the sign of admitting your mistakes and moving on in life.
"Jules, did you ever hear the philosophy that once a man admits that he’s wrong that he is immediately forgiven for all wrongdoings?"
-vincent vega, pulp fiction

Yes I agree with that but how is it related to the question? :dizzy:

[wi_sam]

@wi

Ever heard of the trinity? Research it.

"The Christian doctrine of the Trinity teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead"

So basicly, God is three "persons" in one Godhead... I don't know what's the definition of persons. But I do know that the word trinity does not exist in the Bible, it was "developed" from the bibical language from the new tastements... which leads us to a new question.

Is the current Bible real ??

[analogZero]

Yes I agree with that but how is it related to the question? :dizzy:

theme. It's a common one of many religious practices. :fruit:

[Ramrok]

"The Christian doctrine of the Trinity teaches the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead"

So basicly, God is three "persons" in one Godhead... I don't know what's the definition of persons. But I do know that the word trinity does not exist in the Bible, it was "developed" from the bibical language from the new tastements... which leads us to a new question.

Is the current Bible real ??


to better explain 'persons'... look at it this way... Obama... hes president, father and a husband... does that example suffice?

the bible is composed of the old AND the new testament... the reason why one is 'old' and one is 'new' is what marks as the timeframe that separates the two... which is from around the time of Jesus' resurection.

the bible that was known around the timeframe when Jesus walked on earth, is the old testament... lol, its funny how you seem to talk with so much knowledge like you actually would know so much about the bible.
oh well.

[scrowder89]

i dont think so because of the fact that it has been past down and changed so many times through the ages that it is all fake

[soulten]

i dont think so because of the fact that it has been past down and changed so many times through the ages that it is all fake

All would be pushing it.

There was Jesus. A majority of the places are real.

[scrowder89]

is there proof of there really being jesus a man that his father is god impossible and there is no mistake that some of what happen is true but not all of it and it has been passed down and rewritten so many time thats why i think that it is all fake

[soulten]

is there proof of there really being jesus a man that his father is god impossible and there is no mistake that some of what happen is true but not all of it and it has been passed down and rewritten so many time thats why i think that it is all fake

Jesus was a man, I'll say the least. I'm Pastafarian.

And you gave 2 opposite opinions on the legitimacy of the bible, which is it? Cant be some true and all fake. And I stated that a long time ago that there have been many alterations to the bible, to make it strong and destroy other religions. Some of these original texts said to have been used in the bible say Jesus was just a man, not son of god/god in the flesh.

[scrowder89]

youre right some about what i said but what i meant was that the places are true and that the events that happen is what i do not believe who would a man be able to part the sea, how would it be able to rain for 40 days and 40 nights, and how could a man rise from the dead and that is why i think that the bible is fake

[Ramrok]

you seem to be asking for proof for things that proof cannot be provided for... its not like they had video or audio proof to be used as proof, as it seems thats basically the only thing that would satisfy you... historic events that COULD be proven have in fact been proven, scrolls and scripts have been found that would show proof of such events, monuments, carvings and possibly paintings too have been found that would show proof of the events... what kind of realistic proof are you actually looking for? seriously they only had so many methods that they could keep proof of such events intact... their technology was limited to only so much.

I have found his distinction between a doubter and unbeliever helpful and I hope this distinction may be helpful to you as well...

a doubter is a person who searches for god and the godly life... the person is on a journey, a quest, a search to find god and the love of god...

an unbeliever isn’t searching for god but for the pleasures of this world, he is not searching for god or the god question or the love of god but for situations in life which will bring happiness.

a doubter is a person who has a thousand questions for god; questions about life, love, god’s existence, purpose, the divinity of christ and many other questions.

an unbeliever isn’t asking questions about god, the divine dimension, he is apathetic to god and the god question does not really come up in his or her daily life.

a doubter struggles with god and struggles to live a godly life and struggles to find the purpose of life, but not an unbeliever.

an unbeliever simply struggles to pay the bills, find a spouse, find a job, find a house...

i hope you realize the difference between the two, as only the doubter has genuine questions while the unbeliever is simply out to try to disprove anything god related, only so he or she can continue his/her preffered way of life.

[Ramrok]

youre right some about what i said but what i meant was that the places are true and that the events that happen is what i do not believe who would a man be able to part the sea, how would it be able to rain for 40 days and 40 nights, and how could a man rise from the dead and that is why i think that the bible is fake

how could someone provide you proof that it rained for 40 days and 40 nights? video? you think they had that back then? you think some meteorologist can tell you the weather back then?

how could someone provide you proof that the sea has been parted? the sea itself wouldnt neccessarily leave any kind of residue or marks that it has been parted... no1 videotaped it...

this 'proof' that i keep seeing that people are asking for... is it within reason? could you even possibly think of a method on how such proof can be provided to you? do you think when the sea part, people were thinking "hey someone got a videotape so i can record this for people 2000 years later so they can believe this happened?" try to be more realistic in these demands of such proof... the only thing that CAN be proven is historic events, landmarks, scrolls, scripts, monuments, statues and stuff like that... and guess what, we have proof for that... so what else are you looking for?

[blood zero]

Heres the truth i think the bible isnt real that the CREATORS exxagerrated every little thing about it and the only thing that brought this matter alive was faith itself

[Zaraki]

is there proof of there really being jesus a man that his father is god impossible and there is no mistake that some of what happen is true but not all of it and it has been passed down and rewritten so many time thats why i think that it is all fake

actually the history channel has been "decoding" a few books. few days ago they did it on Exodus. sometime last month on National Geographic, they confirmed Noah's Ark in the mountains i think they said Mountains of Ararat.
http://www.squidoo.com/noahsarkfound

[sammarai]

yes the bibles real is this person an aitheas who made this up

[carolyn07]

...i belive it's true!,.

except for my faith in it we have studied about the salvation history and studied about the bible!,.

and my professor even discussed about the da vinci code,.on how come da vinci made up of that,.fucking sayings about jesus!,.♥

[strike7785]

Of course its real what kind of stupid question is that.

[chordi01]

hey its real alright!and everyone knows it

[wi_sam]

hey its real alright!and everyone knows it

Of course its real what kind of stupid question is that.


So very open-minded, depatable answers.

[leshinor]

So very open-minded, debatable answers.

Oh, I know. The arguments used were so convincing that I was stunned...

[Zaraki]

Oh, I know. The arguments used were so convincing that I was stunned...

i can't believe it's not butter!

[delissa]

yes, it is true. the bible is real and that is what i live by every day.

[Animegirl2]

Yes the bible is true no matter what religion it is each bible show the same thing.

[Airikan]

Of cousre it's real! It's right here!

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj205/nblazerdeb2000/Religious/Bible/holy_bible.gif

Lol. but, yea. The stuff in it can teach you lots of stuff.:\