Evolutionism or Creationism

[shadowmaks]

This is a major topic going in the U.S.. What do you believe in? That animals evolve to their environment over time (that humans evolved from apes) or that a single holy god created all of life.

Here is the topic link
http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/creation-vs-evolution.htm


Edit: 2/14/09
Sorry, I just reliesed that I didn't say what I was for. Personly I don't care, but after seeing the dabate on this on the television, I'll have to go with Evolution. I mean it is clearly explained and can be proved in many ways. I'm not going to dis Creationism so I'm not going to say anything about it exept it is possible that either both are right or wrong. Even a combination of the 2 is possible, I know there is no true answer.

[cutieB]

I believe in creationism because if we really evolved from a monkey then the monkeys should still be evolving today they have been around for as long as we have. And i believe in God our heavenly father, as the creator of the heavens and the earth.

[Ryuuzaki]

I'm an atheist, so that pretty much sums up what I think... But that's too short of a post. Personally, I believe we evolved from apes (and/or various other animals). Firstly, because there is scientific proof of it. I'm sure if you use the nifty thing known as Google, you can find stuff like that since I currently don't have proof or anything. And, what proof do we have of God? The bible? It's a freaking book, yo. Some guy on crack could have written it.

[Basil]

i'm agnostic, so i'm not quite sure if i believe in god or not.
or any deity, for that matter.

but i do believe in the theory of evolutionism -
scientific theory proves that some sort of reaction in
an ape's dna occurred, which ultimately led to the first human being.

like ryuuzaki said, all the proof we have of 'god' is a book.
that's all.
and i'm not liable to believe that, and only that.

[EvilWolf]

Ironically the guy that wrote the King James version of the bible was drunk when he actually translated it originally...

But I believe in creationism... well... because I believe in God... I... I guess I kinda believe in both... there IS proof of evolutionism like Ryuuzaki said, they found a monkey-ish animal that looked more like a human than a monkey somewhere... I can't remember the whole story... anyway couldn't IN THEORY God have started the events that cause evolution? There was a program on the History channel about this...

[Basil]

Ironically the guy that wrote the King James version of the bible was drunk when he actually translated it originally...

But I believe in creationism... well... because I believe in God... I... I guess I kinda believe in both... there IS proof of evolutionism like Ryuuzaki said, they found a monkey-ish animal that looked more like a human than a monkey somewhere... I can't remember the whole story... anyway couldn't IN THEORY God have started the events that cause evolution? There was a program on the History channel about this...

well, yes.
it's true that god could have started evolutionism.
set the reactions a-going, you know the whole bit.

but i don't have set proof that god exists, so it's hard for me to believe
that that's true. :/

[aezgaga]

1- was nothing
2- Kaboom
3- Everything
4- Tadahh

any question?

[wi_sam]

Creationism .......even if
we evolved from apes (and/or various other animals).

Then who CREATED those things in the first place ?? who found earth ?? who funkin gave you consciousness to actually think and breath ??

[aezgaga]

Creationism .......even if


Then who CREATED those things in the first place ?? who found earth ?? who funkin gave you consciousness to actually think and breath ??

Play Spore ... you will learn :fruit:

[lee matsu]

.....i'm not big on this but i personally believe that many "humans" try to figure out what came first or what started everything ..... sometimes we are left with no answers or different answers but in all said an done ...enjoy ur life as your own ...to me being confuse or tryin to find out everything ....is jus energy sucking you dry ......i need water an freedom ...there for i jus live like the ...rabbit or the hawk ...which ever u perfer to be ..i'm simply human ...living ..... so big bang or spoked creation is jus a thought ,,that came form people like us ........ but i try not to be like the "ancestors an all the rest of em folks " but if it brings u peace ..than go on an live ....

[aezgaga]

.... yeah.... was nothing then Poof ! god throw a guy and a girl.... then they make kid... and their kid make other kid togheter and those other kid make other kids..... that wasn't suppose to make wierd baby ? .... anyway.... I'm sure the bible was write by walt disney...

[wi_sam]

Play Spore ... you will learn :fruit:

>,> O RLY ?

[Ryuuzaki]

Creationism .......even if


Then who CREATED those things in the first place ?? who found earth ?? who funkin gave you consciousness to actually think and breath ??

Everything evolved from something. Maybe a little seed of some-sort grew into a wolf, which then grew into a human. It's all apart of evolution. Also, lay off the language... Swearing is unneeded in a debate. Every once-in-awhile I'd love to have a good debate, without immature people ruining it.

[aezgaga]

>,> O RLY ?

ya Rly



but seriously.... I already read the bible and it's just a joke damn... for those who think that we aren't coming from the apes because if we were coming from the apes all the apes would be human too.... it's because of the climate... some apes needed to change to survive but for those that live in the jungle without any danger will stay monkey.... (something like that XD)

[cutieB]

Creationism .......even if


Then who CREATED those things in the first place ?? who found earth ?? who funkin gave you consciousness to actually think and breath ??

Thank you Sam i totally agree with you wholeheartedlly.:cute:::D:

[aezgaga]

non-sense..... you seriously thought ? that god just make two human and say go ! have sex and make kid ! ..... wtf ? even then those two naked people could get eat by any other creature!.... And what about the dinosaure ... if the human were the first thing on earth.... they survive to the dinosaure ages ??? or god just like to play with dino .. kill them all then make human.... XD I wonder why people can still believe in this

[EvilWolf]

non-sense..... you seriously thought ? that god just make two human and say go ! have sex and make kid ! ..... wtf ? even then those two naked people could get eat by any other creature!.... And what about the dinosaure ... if the human were the first thing on earth.... they survive to the dinosaure ages ??? or god just like to play with dino .. kill them all then make human.... XD I wonder why people can still believe in this

You REALLY need to understand both point of views if you're going to talk about something like you know everything... God made Animals ("DUH HUR TEH DINOSAUR!") first and then He made humans... The Mesozaic era could have been anytime between those two points... Also scientists have theorized that it was volcanoes that killed the dinosaurs not an asteroid... which IF the humans were alive during that period they COULD have still survived...

[lee matsu]

i wonder why people get so offended ????? .....

[soulten]

Creationism .......even if


Then who CREATED those things in the first place ?? who found earth ?? who funkin gave you consciousness to actually think and breath ??

They started form a small single cell organism and slowly evolved over roughly billions of years to get where we are today.If you want to learn how it started go google it.

B. Earth is a term we use to name our planet, your question is like asking "Who created gravity?" No one did, we gave it a name to try to understand it.

C. His mom and dad did.

I follow evolutionism, more believable proof and ideas.

[wi_sam]

Everything evolved from something. Maybe a little seed of some-sort grew into a wolf, which then grew into a human. It's all apart of evolution. Also, lay off the language... Swearing is unneeded in a debate. Every once-in-awhile I'd love to have a good debate, without immature people ruining it.

You are right, that was unneeded language, so is your calling me immature (and dont say i wasn't talking to you)

But I really pitty people who see things from their own point of view only, I mean the Bible is NOT the only book that speaks of God, and by God, I certainly do not mean Jesus the "son of God" ...

[atomsk]

i believe in unintelligent design. http://www.theshrubbery.com/udn/

[Ryuuzaki]

You are right, that was unneeded language, so is your calling me immature (and dont say i wasn't talking to you)

But I really pitty people who see things from their own point of view only, I mean the Bible is NOT the only book that speaks of God, and by God, I certainly do not mean Jesus the "son of God" ...

I was talking about immature people in general, not just you. Saying "fuck" and me calling you immature are two different things all together. One is meaningless swearing, and the other is pointing out a fact. But I'm going off topic, so I'll leave it there. <3

While I know that the bible is not the only place that speaks of "God", but what if they are written by crack-heads? What if they're written by drunks?

[Koopaking]

I say, who cares?

Does it really matter how we got here? It is really SO important that you MUST try and either gather scientific evidence over years of research or base entire religions off the concept? Of course people will want to search for the answers, because humans are inquisitive. We must learn and won't be satisfied unless there is an end-all explanation for something. Don't have an explanation handy? Just make up a story or a theory, and tout it as fact!

I say this - No matter how we came into existence, we are here now, and that is all that matters.

(If you really must know what I think, I don't believe in the Bible, but I don't necessarily support evolution... it is an incredibly plausible theory, but there still is some refining that ought to be done before I back it.)

[lee matsu]

I say, who cares?

Does it really matter how we got here? It is really SO important that you MUST try and either gather scientific evidence over years of research or base entire religions off the concept? Of course people will want to search for the answers, because humans are inquisitive. We must learn and won't be satisfied unless there is an end-all explanation for something. Don't have an explanation handy? Just make up a story or a theory, and tout it as fact!

I say this - No matter how we came into existence, we are here now, and that is all that matters.

(If you really must know what I think, I don't believe in the Bible, but I don't necessarily support evolution... it is an incredibly plausible theory, but there still is some refining that ought to be done before I back it.)






ah i see an i agree with u my stranger ...::D:

[Anime_Dude]

I say, who cares?

I say this - No matter how we came into existence, we are here now, and that is all that matters.


Thats right Koopa, totally agree with you there

Does it really matter
We are here,we are queer...no no not queer but we are here and thats all that matters

[soulten]

Thats right Koopa, totally agree with you there

Does it really matter
We are here,we are queer...no no not queer but we are here and thats all that matters

To us humans it does. We will always be looking for the answer. Probably be our downfall... if it already isn't.

[wi_sam]

While I know that the bible is not the only place that speaks of "God", but what if they are written by crack-heads? What if they're written by drunks?
What if !! what if !! what if !!

They started form a small single cell organism and slowly evolved over roughly billions of years to get where we are today.If you want to learn how it started go google it.
Not interested .

B. Earth is a term we use to name our planet, your question is like asking "Who created gravity?" No one did, we gave it a name to try to understand it.

C. His mom and dad did.

So ... we just came onto this life because a human male desided to have sexual intercource with a human female .... very convenient.
We just live our life (in "earth") and die ... and thats it, thats all we have to do, right ??

[lee matsu]

What if !! what if !! what if !!

We just live our life (in "earth") and die ... and thats it, thats all we have to do, right ??

if it really bothers you ...find "your answer" don't get everyone else mix up in it ...an smile man or gal ...don't get all twisted out bout it human....

[Basil]

there's no reason to get so worked up about this.
as far as i'm concerned, all of it is "what if",
including the 'god' concept.

no need to be an asshole about it. :3

[soulten]

So ... we just came onto this life because a human male desided to have sexual intercource with a human female .... very convenient.
We just live our life (in "earth") and die ... and thats it, thats all we have to do, right ??

Yes so convenient that it has been happening for millions of years and will happen for the next hundred of millions of years.
That's the general premise, what you do between then is up to you.

[Ryuuzaki]

if it really bothers you ...find "your answer" don't get everyone else mix up in it ...an smile man or gal ...don't get all twisted out bout it human....

For once, I actually agree with part of Lee Matsu's post... Just the first two sentences, though. Sorta. What I mean, is something like, "If it really bothers you, find your answer and don't get all mad about it.

[God]

Posting to ruin this thread.

[lee matsu]

For once, I actually agree with part of Lee Matsu's post... Just the first two sentences, though. Sorta. What I mean, is something like, "If it really bothers you, find your answer and don't get all mad about it.

jajaja i don't know what to feel ...this moment will be treasure forever on this post .... but in all honestly .... yeh ....debates like dis bring out the real colors of people no ....:serious:

[Basil]

how childish. :/

[soulten]

how childish. :/

And what is childish?
I would like to have a real debate but you people seem more interested in voicing opinions on other members than supporting your beliefs. why don't you try to help this debate?

*probably be closing this soon.

[wi_sam]

Humans are such a complicated ignorant things !

I speak my mind, then people starts preaching, calling names, Inventing theories , acting "cool" and "mature" .

Well, I'll just go with the flow and drop it (8
:: Oh ! look at me !! i'm a cheeze burger with no pickles!!!::

[Basil]

aha.
people's reactions, is all. :3

[wi_sam]

And what is childish?
I would like to have a real debate but you people seem more interested in voicing opinions on other members than supporting your beliefs. why don't you try to help this debate?

*probably be closing this soon.

If you want to talk about that stuff, there is only one guy in this whole site that would talk with you (besides me;) and he actually knows what he talking about ,Raven.

Why close it ?? its good, a serious thread for a change.

[Ryuuzaki]

And what is childish?
I would like to have a real debate but you people seem more interested in voicing opinions on other members than supporting your beliefs. why don't you try to help this debate?

*probably be closing this soon.

Yeah, don't close it just yet. As long as others are willing to put up a decent debate and not get pissy with what others say, I'll put up a good argument.

[Basil]

same here. :3

[saprintha]

What if !! what if !! what if !!

Yes "what if" is always the question. "what if this, what if that." Human minds will never be satisfied of knowledge. We would always want more and more. but i personally believe in a bit of both. yes there are scientific evidence of evolution, but there are parts of evolution that can't be explained. Like they just happened unexpectedly. For me, when it comes to those things, i believe it's creationism. I may not know myself what those events may be, because i don't really pay attention to those kind of things, but i know that there are events like that.

[EvilWolf]

And what is childish?
I would like to have a real debate but you people seem more interested in voicing opinions on other members than supporting your beliefs. why don't you try to help this debate?

*probably be closing this soon.

I felt my points were valid, I like real debates as well... But everyone is going to end up arguing in the end because even though people may have all the proof in the world, For those of you that don't believe in God it's because you can't see him... he isn't tangible... But there is also another side to this coin that most people try to ignore or deny.., this also means that you can't prove it wrong... since you... DON'T know... the conversation would go in circles endlessly... REAL debates are about stuff that is tangible... and that ARE provable... It will probably take millenia for humans to figure out the truth about God... It isn't logical to call this a REAL debate since none of us will know the truth in our lifetimes...

[leerock89]

Ya, this thread started out interestingly enough and then degraded to a lot of arguing. Mayhaps it is because of the lack of perspective from all parties to all parties.

[soulten]

I felt my points were valid, I like real debates as well... But everyone is going to end up arguing in the end because even though people may have all the proof in the world, For those of you that don't believe in God it's because you can't see him... he isn't tangible... But there is also another side to this coin that most people try to ignore or deny.., this also means that you can't prove it wrong... since you... DON'T know... the conversation would go in circles endlessly... REAL debates are about stuff that is tangible... and that ARE provable... It will probably take millenia for humans to figure out the truth about God... It isn't logical to call this a REAL debate since none of us will know the truth in our lifetimes...

Who says this so-called god is male?

What is real? This is a very vague term. What you consider to be a real debate may be people in suits talking about "how Person A did this to place A and was it good or bad"(best example I got atm) While mine could be simply people merely staying on topic of a question and trying to compare opinions and trying to enlighten others with their idea.

Not all debates are on tangible objects, more then non it is about an idea. Not are they necessarily provable. Like let's say a debate on whether or not America would be better communistic. How could you prove that? The best you could do is compare it to Russia but even then you are make wild accusations which can easily disproved/destroyed.

Nor would I call your little hissy-fit on me using the word "real", when I could go easily change it to nice, logical at all to this so-called "debate".

Now to get on more topic.

So you can see god eh?

Can you prove your right? Cause I can, we share 99.8(or 98)% of our DNA with simians.

How do you know? Can you enlighten me please?

[analogZero]

Part 1: don't take offense, and move on when you're done.
God is everything, and nothing at the same time. To believe he exists you'd need to believe the evidence he leaves you. Just because things don't happen exactly as stated, word for word in one of many interpreted books of "God's word" doesn't make his work irrefutable.
The problem with this debate is that it sells one story of creation, when in fact there are hundreds to be had. This is a rather arrogant form of pressure, and it sells God as an entity pertaining to one set of beliefs. Now there are countless religions giving praise to a greater power, but they take the unnecessary step of going beyond this point to make arguments. They attach stories, and ideals, and labels, and humanly associations to it rather than acknowledging that God is God. It is not something that writes books, it is the book, the writer, the ink, the intention, the perception as much as it is the person who knows nothing of God. It is the complexity of the universe you'll never be able to comprehend, the vast change and difference between rock and water, air and plant, man and fish. It is an indefinite mathematical equation with and infinite solution. It is the simplicity of a particle that makes it's way into your body, leaves your body and enters another. You and your existence are unable to affect it's ability. It doesn't possess emotion, it doesn't possess conscience, it doesn't possess life, for it is all these things and more and none.

now, do you think if God had something to say, that you'd be able to understand it? God would have to seriously dumb itself down in order to make the most intelligent person to exist scratch his head in a vain attempt to comprehend it's unimaginable accuracy and brilliance.


Part 2: The concept of change.
Consider yourself a defect. Every time something is born it pertains to blueprints of it's creator while making modifications to account for the duality that is it's creator (parents). You hold true to the form of your species while making unwarranted adjustments as a result of your creation. We're not all the same person after all.
Now, evolution is essentially adaptation. You're in an environment that's hot, and your body develops a tan to reduce the effects of damage to vital tissues effected by the climate. This is evolution on a small scale. Time and stimuli are the key factors to evolution it seems, It's not as though monkeys have a bald child one day, with impeccable posture and enhanced cognitive abilities. Something like that would be ridiculous.
Take yourself as an example. Every day you learn something new, right? You take that knowledge with you and build on new knowledge as you go along until one day, you're smart! That is to say you're smarter than you were when you were a child. You've utilized the information you've gathered to improve upon yourself. This is something you can take credit for, as you did the work, you interpreted the information in a manner that would benefit you into a stronger, more stable position. This is what evolution does.
All life is comprised of genetic information, it's what makes it grow into what it is (regardless of whether you believe it will change down the road or not). Through it's offspring genetic information is manipulated to produce a replica with minute differences (appearances, certain colours, fertility, size, etc.). These differences can be interpreted as improvements as much as they can be interpreted as defects or mutations. Mother nature's a mad scientist.
The key to understanding evolution is that over vast amounts of time, certain stimuli effect these genetic alterations. If the stimulus is abundant, then the evolution takes on a faster pace, like many species on the Galápagos Islands or in the rain forests. Again this doesn't mean that lizards grow shells at will so they can go for a swim and not be eaten by a shark. These are very small scale representations of the mechanics of evolution.


Part 3: The George Lucas Effect, aka. blue and red make purple.
God created the universe, therefore God created it's design. Scientist pursue knowledge to unlock God's design. It's the greatest puzzle ever built, and God made it for you to examine and appreciate. God may have provided a guide book to his puzzle, but did he give you the full answer? perhaps. At least he gave you a small handful of vague guidelines by which to navigate his maze. Did evolution start with a small spark of life? perhaps. Perhaps God took an alternate route to what was written. Perhaps he decided to start his story in the middle, as did George Lucas with Star Wars, and he's yet to write a retarded beginning that is filled with ridiculous concepts and retarded crap that makes you question why he would've done something like that, for crying out loud.
If it's illogical to believe a book, whose original copy no longer exists, and of a God that you can't experience in your form, than it's equally as illogical to believe that abstract life forms have made minute changes over billions of years into the beings we are today. Regardless of your view, you must either accept both, or deny both. God is science, after all.

[xXWENWENXx]

What are they?><

[soulten]

But why is there a god? Why can't things have JUST HAPPENED? I get how god/s where used as excuses to explain the strange/different. But in this day and age of science why must we still believe god is/was out there and started everything? Many people use god as a safety blanket, but still many things can be proved with science and many can't. Is it the fear of the after life or just life in general?(I do like one creation myth but I just need to find it.)Why can't it just be gases formed, big bang, time passed, life formed. Why does something always have to start it in most case?

[EvilWolf]

Who says this so-called god is male?
Nor would I call your little hissy-fit on me using the word "real", when I could go easily change it to nice, logical at all to this so-called "debate".
Now to get on more topic.

So you can see god eh?

Can you prove your right? Cause I can, we share 99.8(or 98)% of our DNA with simians.

How do you know? Can you enlighten me please?

I made the mistake of saying "him" I apologise... I don't think we can characterize God as being a female or a male...

I guess you take offence easy... I was MERELY stating that This is hardly a debate that would come to a conclusive end... I wasn't throwing a hissy fit... a hissy fit would be if I started cursing at you for an entire post...

I never said I could see God... no one can see God... that was my point... while you may have proof that Humans evolved from apes that's all excellent... but if you read my first post on this thread I said that God could still very well be responsible for evolution...

My OVERALL point was that no one can see God... and by that logic you can't prove he exists or prove that he doesn't exist... it's called having faith... it is difficult to debate when the subject is faith...

Is it the fear of the after life or just life in general?

I believe religion was created because people didn't want to accept the notion that after you die it's all over... I don't mean to sound brash or blunt here but think about it... If you believe in a religion and you happen to be right you go to where ever you're Heaven or greater plane of existence are... but if you are an atheist and you're right... nothing happens... you die and ... well... nothing...

[soulten]

I guess you take offence easy... I was MERELY stating that This is hardly a debate that would come to a conclusive end... I wasn't throwing a hissy fit... a hissy fit would be if I started cursing at you for an entire post...

I never said I could see God... no one can see God... that was my point... while you may have proof that Humans evolved from apes that's all excellent... but if you read my first post on this thread I said that God could still very well be responsible for evolution...

My OVERALL point was that no one can see God... and by that logic you can't prove he exists or prove that he doesn't exist... it's called having faith... it is difficult to debate when the subject is faith...

I'm not taking offense I just dislike how my saying is being "mauled" because of some minor wording. I just merely want to get my point across. If that means from now one I am going to have to type paragraph responses to everything so my point is not misinterpreted so be it. Well if we stepped back I doubt this could even be considered a debate when it is merely a bunch of opinions based on who you are. Hissy fit was just the best word I could use to describe your... I guess just your dislike of the word real?

And sorry to say but this sentence "For those of you that don't believe in God it's because you can't see him" sounds like you and how I interpenetrated it as you don't believe because you can't see. The wording could have been better there.

Just wondering have you read the about the flying spaghetti monster? Because you argument is very similar to what is used to explain it.

[EvilWolf]

Nope... never read the flying spaghetti monster =\

Anyway I'm just stepping away from this conversation... it's only going to go in circles... there is no point in me debating this subject... It's not like anyone is going to change anyone elses opinions about the subject... and I'm sorry I made you think I was arguing the meaning of the word real with you... I guess I couldn't find a better way to get the points I stated in that post across...

EDIT: I guess my overall point was MOST debates are on subjects that have conclusive answers... like... "Why did John run the red light?" ... or... subjects in science or other subjects... Like in physics "Why does the ball fall when it's pushed off the desk?" stuff like that, that people can actually answer... questions that you can find ALL the variables to...

[analogZero]

Well that's the point right there, variables.
The debate of evolution vs creationism is made an unintelligent one when you consider that both sides are trying to argue their equation is a whole, when if fact it contains holes. Both lack variables in numerous places, and therefore both become nul and void. It's like giving you a problem of a+b+c+...+x+y+z=proof, where a=bones(or God), f=dinosaurs( or faith), and u=monkeys(or the bible), solve for 'proof'.
You have a small handful of variables in each corner with nothing to place into your equation. Keep in mind, science still hasn't completely linked us to apes.
Though truthfully, if you want proof of evolution, check out onions, shallots, and garlic. There's little doubt what happened there.

[Zaraki]

Creationism. I do believe God is the one and only Alpha and Omega and so forth. I just a headache from all these evolution theories. They can't agree upon anything. My Biology teacher tried to make me believe what she thinks is the only the correct theory. Like what cutieB said if we evolved from apes or any animals why aren't they still changing?

Evolution = A lot of bull and headaches.

[analogZero]

Creationism. I do believe God is the one and only Alpha and Omega and so forth. I just a headache from all these evolution theories. They can't agree upon anything. My Biology teacher tried to make me believe what she thinks is the only the correct theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_membe rs

this is simply christianity as a whole, devided amongst itself because "[people] can't agree upon anything."

[SmokedBoo]

I believe in creationism because if we really evolved from a monkey then the monkeys should still be evolving today they have been around for as long as we have. And i believe in God our heavenly father, as the creator of the heavens and the earth.

Actually, if we really did evolve from monkeys then they shouldn't be here. As far as evolution goes, none of the animals every creature supposedly evolved from is not around anymore. So why are there monkeys?
Besides, who would want to believe that we came from soup? According to the evolution theory, millions and millions of years ago the Earth was formed from molten lava and gases, and we were just a huge hunk of rock. Then it rained on the Earth for millions and millions of years creating a primordial soup. Which the amoeba came from, which evolved into a monkey, which evolved into a man. So every evolutionist believes that we came from rocks that were made into a soup. Really, there is no scientific evidence that supports the evolution theory or the big bang theory for that matter. Both are a load of poppycock.

[leerock89]

I'm with analog on this, the whole argument is rather a waist of time. Talking about what you believe in is ok but trying to argue a case when there is no case on both sides is like watching two idiots try to out idiot themselves, both parties are just going to get hurt. To put in my two cents, I am a believer of both. I do believe that life IS evolving and that there is a "higher power" out there(whether if that "power" is hanging around us is a mater perspective). The reason why I see it that way is simple really; why not? A huge majority will believe in one or the other, but why not both. You can't argue the fact that the concept of evolving is an actuality, all you have to do is look at us humans and follow the history we have lead so far and you can see us flowing, changing and moving. As for believing in a higher power, why not? Is it not possible for a species to to reach for the impossible and attain omnipresent immortality through technological, psychological even mystical means?? And if you follow that thought would it not make sense, that in this vast VAST VAST universe, something(s) has achieved that power and is now roaming the universe doing as it/they wishes, such as meddling in mortal affairs, creating whole planets with eco and zeno systems, and roaming the entire universe just cause it/they can? Whose to say God exists?? Whose to say God doesn't? All who say one or the other need to open their eyes to the other side, and here's an idea; Who cares?!? Get over it and live.

[SkY93]

honestly if humans came from monkeys shouldnt they still be evolving aroubd us?

[EvilWolf]

Ok I lied... this conversation is way too interesting for me to stay away from...

honestly if humans came from monkeys shouldnt they still be evolving aroubd us?

NOT Necessarily... to my knowledge the whole thing took millions of years... so we wouldn't exactly SEE the evolution with our own eyes... but with that in mind I still HIGHLY doubt evolution... there are just too many variables in it that cannot be proven as of yet...

[Salt]

When discussing this issue, it's important to distinguish between micro- and macro-evolution. Unless I misunderstand, micro-evolution refers to the changes and adaptations that occur in nature (finch beaks vary in size and function, insects become resistant to pesticides, etc.). Macro-evolution refers to the theory that all life arose from a single ancestor and continues to change, largely through the processes of mutation and natural selection (cell - primates - man). The former idea has been observed innumerable times--things do, in fact, change, and there is unquestionable evidence to support the notion. The latter idea has never been observed to my knowledge.

As for the principles that drive evolution--chance mutation and natural selection--I don't believe they are capable of bringing the degree of change claimed by the theory.

By way of example, lets say a given population of roaches is sprayed with pesticide. If a handful of the insects carry a particular mutation in their genes that grant them immunity to the chemical, it follows that they will survive the Purge, while the less-fortunate majority will be destroyed. This is natural selection in action. And when the clever survivors who carry the mutation mate, they pass on their genes to the next generation of roaches, and that population begins to thrive.

However, the Dark Lord is clever, and he knows there are natural limits to the adaptability of his prey; he then sends his secret weapon, Darth Sledgehammer, to hunt them down one by one. With each encounter, the end is the same--though mutated, the poor roaches are nonetheless crushed beneath the weight of Darth's assaults. In the end, the population of roaches is extinguished, and the Dark Times now fully envelope the cheap New York apartment galaxy.

The point is this: mutation, adaptation, natural selection--these can only take a population of creatures so far. At some point, their genes will lack the necessary genetic information to produce the immense variety of physiology that we find in all of life. A cow, no matter how many times you microwave it, will never have the materials to make a wing. Mutation and natural selection cannot add new genetic information.

If this is correct, logic moves me to think that all life did indeed come from an ancestor--but not one for everything. Instead, each "kind" of organism had its own ancestor, including humans, with all of the necessary genetic code to produce any number of potential species, as appropriate circumstances would come to bear. Thus we have so many varieties of birds, so many types of skin colors on people, and so many breeds of dog-family creatures (wolf, bloodhound, chihuahua).

(I have no concrete scientific definition for the word "kind," but perhaps a "kind" is any group of organisms within which interbreeding is possible?)

And if this is true, then the situation begs the question: Where did those ancestors come from? If nature cannot produce new genetic information, then the ancestor-creatures would need it from the start--they would need to simply "appear," fully formed. But since life cannot come from non-life in nature, and since matter/energy can neither be created nor destroyed in nature, what if something outside of nature was responsible? I say, an intelligent Person(s) had to put the ancestor-creatures there, pre-fashioned and ready to go.

(I apologize for the wall-o'-text. And I encourage all of you to look for holes in my thinking. I believe what I said wholeheartedly, but I also am interested in intellectual integrity, so pick away! :D)

[leshinor]

If you believe in a religion and you happen to be right you go to where ever you're Heaven or greater plane of existence are... but if you are an atheist and you're right... nothing happens... you die and ... well... nothing...

Hahah i have thought about this too!

Well about all the apes talk: science doesn't claim that humans came from apes. The theory is that humans and apes (monkeys, gorillas, etc) had a common ancestor and at some time in earth's history they got separated and evolved differently. So, it's not like monkeys will become human one day!

About the books that speak of God: we do not exactly believe these books (or their authors) just because they exist but because once we read them we agree with what they say and we think it is logical. So, ppl do not follow a religion merely because they were told it is right and given a book with random instructions but because they agree with the book's points (or at least this is how it is supposed to be)!

Now, before trying to understand whether God exists or not we need to define what is God (and not just a supreme power 'cause this doesn't really say much)!
I believe God is the source of all Goodness, as it is to say God defines Good in a way! But I would like to know what you believe too! I am using He not because I think God is male (I don't think God has a gender) but it would seem weird to call Him 'It', right?
Well, considering evolution, I believe in it but I also believe that God might have played His role in it! And of course the story of Adam and Eve is a fairy tail. It is more like a myth with the purpose of making people understand that humans have Goodness in them but also greed and God gave them the choice to remain purely Good but they succumb to their greed. This is what I believe as well. Even though we may sin, God always gives us the option of retribution! And I believe that is what Jesus was supporting, if you understand your sins and are sorry for them then God will forgive you!!!

Well what do you guys think???

@Salt
Well nature can make new genetic info through changes in the DNA sequence!

[acelomado]

anyone... we are from a far space... we are the cosmos...
http://www.animefuel.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=1256&pictureid=16275

[EvilWolf]

Thank you salt for wording that so perfectly... I couldn't think of a way to say that...
(the part about micro and macro evolution) as you said there IS a huge difference between the two... and as leshinor pointed out the actual belief is that apes and humans came from a common ancestor... You both managed to summarize what I've been trying to say the whole time...

[aezgaga]

loool it's so funny how people say :O it's god ! google it ! chek on Wikipedia :O..... We are human... human made mistake... human make theory ... human based their theroy by bible... who was write bye human... witch make mistake... IT'S NOT BECAUSE IT'S WRITTEN THAT IT'S MEAN THAT IT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE !!! You saw that god eat human sandwich on youtube and say OMG !!! GOD EAT HUMAN ! Stop believing just what you read because you think that the guy who write it made a lot of research... but... who can tell that the book he read (witch were wrote by HUMAN) was absolutely true....

Every truth is not necessery good to tell...

[EvilWolf]

loool it's so funny how people say :O it's god ! google it ! chek on Wikipedia :O..... We are human... human made mistake... human make theory ... human based their theroy by bible... who was write bye human... witch make mistake... IT'S NOT BECAUSE IT'S WRITTEN THAT IT'S MEAN THAT IT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE !!! You saw that god eat human sandwich on youtube and say OMG !!! GOD EAT HUMAN ! Stop believing just what you read because you think that the guy who write it made a lot of research... but... who can tell that the book he read (witch were wrote by HUMAN) was absolutely true....

Every truth is not necessery good to tell...

... Dude I'm really sorry about this but... seriously... I'm usually not trying to offend anyone when I post but this is gonna be hard... Ok... I'm sorry but you KINDA made a point... but again... You REALLY need to do more research into what you're claiming to know EVERYTHING about... also... PLEASE work on your spelling... I've seen other posts by you and your spelling is alright... so I'm guess you're just in a hurry... slow down a bit... Anyway back on the paragraph... You could say that about every ideology there is... I'll use physics as a base... EVERYONE in their right mind knows if you push a ball of a table it's going to fall to the ground... so according to you when someone transcribes that to paper... since they're human it HAS to be wrong... Now while I agree that not EVERYTHING written is true... the way you make it sound is that YOU know for a FACT it isn't true... when... you don't know... I DON'T KNOW... no one KNOWS... again... that's what FAITH is...

[AyumiBee]

Okey I believe in evolution. First of all on Earth there wasn't any life after that some onecelled living things started to live(the air was poisinous at that time). After that as the air became less and less polluted these living creatures started to conqeur th earth. And we have envoled from apes. True there are biological facts about it. And does the bible say there were dinosours?

As you can see I'm atheist though even if I would believe in God I would accept this theory: we had the same ancetors with the apes at some point. Look at the fossils, the skulls are very different from nowdays humans. I learned that the bible wasn't written at that time when Jesus had lived. Even if he lived he was a mere human. There are apokrif writing they are forbidded by the Church and these writing had been created at the same time as the "bible". How can it be there were christians who believed in that there isn't Holy Trinity at that time they were killed ofc because they are heretical (though they neversaid they don't believe in God himself), how can a religion based on love doing cruel things just because someone isn't believing in the same thing as they? I stop now it's getting off topic...

[aezgaga]

... Dude I'm really sorry about this but... seriously... I'm usually not trying to offend anyone when I post but this is gonna be hard... Ok... I'm sorry but you KINDA made a point... but again... You REALLY need to do more research into what you're claiming to know EVERYTHING about... also... PLEASE work on your spelling... I've seen other posts by you and your spelling is alright... so I'm guess you're just in a hurry... slow down a bit... Anyway back on the paragraph... You could say that about every ideology there is... I'll use physics as a base... EVERYONE in their right mind knows if you push a ball of a table it's going to fall to the ground... so according to you when someone transcribes that to paper... since they're human it HAS to be wrong... Now while I agree that not EVERYTHING written is true... the way you make it sound is that YOU know for a FACT it isn't true... when... you don't know... I DON'T KNOW... no one KNOWS... again... that's what FAITH is...

1-Sorry for my spelling i know
2-you didn't understand me for some point lol (I start writing in english like... 2 years ago so sometime I don't know how to express my idea sorry lol)

3- I didn't say that ALL what is write is wrong lol some can be logically check(like the ball) but for something like this.... something you cannot verified... It can be wrong.... and seriously... I find that ... weird ... I was born in creationism my parent are like that a lot but once I read the bible I was like... What the fuck ! I don't say that I won't believe in god... but if he's the creator of all... I don't think so... well anyway... I can't say that creationism is true... and I can't say evolutionism too... And don't worry I'm not the kind of dude who is going to be offend easily If I am wrong tell it lol I always like when someone say that I'm wrong :P that help me to learn ^^

Back to the subject. I just found that be bible is waaaay too irrealistic... okay I tell you a story (and it was true i heard about it by some addict to creationism) A guy have no money... he was living in the wood far away from all civilisation. he was going fishing and get nothing... one day when he came back he saw a sandwich on his table... That's because he prey a lot ... god make him a sandwich.... XD would you believe this ?

[EvilWolf]

Okey I believe in evolution. First of all on Earth there wasn't any life after that some onecelled living things started to live(the air was poisinous at that time). After that as the air became less and less polluted these living creatures started to conqeur th earth. And we have envoled from apes. True there are biological facts about it. And does the bible say there were dinosours?

As you can see I'm atheist though even if I would believe in God I would accept this theory: we had the same ancetors with the apes at some point. Look at the fossils, the skulls are very different from nowdays humans. I learned that the bible wasn't written at that time when Jesus had lived. Even if he lived he was a mere human. There are apokrif writing they are forbidded by the Church and these writing had been created at the same time as the "bible". How can it be there were christians who believed in that there isn't Holy Trinity at that time they were killed ofc because they are heretical (though they neversaid they don't believe in God himself), how can a religion based on love doing cruel things just because someone isn't believing in the same thing as they? I stop now it's getting off topic...

(please take no offence at what I'm about to say I'm just trying to share my opinion)

Dinosaurs fall into the "Animal" category and the 7 day theory says animals came before... I said it all in a previous post I made please read that...

Also... about your sentences on the Bible... there are MANY versions of the bible I doubt the "original" Bible is even still around...

As for your comments on a religion based on love causing such evil... well... the Catholics of old did do some PRETTY horrific things... They BELIEVED they were doing it in Gods name... now if that WAS God's will no one will know... the point is just because certain people misinturpret (speeling?) the will of their... diety... or greater power, doesn't mean the ENTIRE religion is bad...

[leshinor]

@aezgaga
I agree with you that we shouldn't believe to anything that is written or said to us but as I pointed out earlier, we choose to believe those with whom we agree NOT because they said they were right but because WE find them right!
And I believe all truths should be made known. They may be rush, hard to accept and they might create a fuss when told BUT we should be able to handle the truth whatever it is for without the truth we are not really free but slaves to our own false impressions! Freedom comes with knowledge.

@AyumiBee
Well christian religion and the church's actions are two different things. During Middle Age, the Church did some really bad things such as murders and oppression. This is not what Jesus wanted, but the church used the power of religion to do stuff that did not match with Jesus' teachings, so it's not like God justified the church's doings or something!!! Well EvilWolf explained that pretty well before me too, so... I guess you guys get our point!
I believe in both the evolution theory and the existence of God and I don't think they contradict each other. As I said maybe God played a role in the evolution of humans.

[EvilWolf]

Wow leshinor we agree on something else it appears... Creative Evolutionism...

[leshinor]

Oh I like that... Creative Evolutionism! Sounds very scientific :dancing: lol

And don't worry I'm not the kind of dude who is going to be offend easily If I am wrong tell it lol I always like when someone say that I'm wrong :P that help me to learn ^^


That's great! Being open-minded and accepting other people's opinions is a trait you don't come across so easily! ::D:
I like the story with the sandwich, it made me laugh!
Well, most stories in the bible are used to make people understand an ideology better, it's not like they are real! Especially the stories Jesus said had some deep meanings. Unfortunately, I haven't read the Bible; i have encountered some fragments in other books and heard things in discussions but I haven't really read it. But this is getting a bit off topic!

Well, what I wanted to point out is that everything is a matter of faith. God is of course a very vague and hard to understand subject and so you need faith to accept that he made the universe and to adopt a religious point of view because there is no actual evidence. However, the evolution theory requires faith as well since it is a theory based on other theories and presumptions! Just because we have found some bones and it makes sense that humans have evolved from these creatures by natural selection, it doesn't mean it is right or that it can be a very valid evidence since it has too many unknown coefficients. We do not know how Earth was, we just assume how it was. We do not even know how these creatures were. We just say that they should be like that because it would make sense this way. So in science we need faith as well. Often people don't realize this because all the modern world is based on science and the scientists seem to be very confident about themselves and claim to have evidence.

[EvilWolf]

Oh I like that... Creative Evolutionism! Sounds very scientific :dancing: lol

That's it's actual name... I didn't make it up...

[Waste]

I don't know if this has been mentioned but i saw something about us evolving from monkeys or something...
We didnt. When it comes to the evoloutionary tree thingy it got to a point where humans went one way and primates went the other, we did not poof from orangotangs (sp w/e) into humans... maybe giners did, but thats a completely different debate.

Another thing, God doesn't exist, I'm not going too far into detail about it and Idc what arguments you give me... but I believe in evoloution, you want my reason? God isn't real.
And there is no opening my mind to the opposite tbh.

Also you say we believe in natural selection = evoloution because it makes sense.... does the idea of a God really make sense?

Bring me some glowing bones and I may review my opinion.
Then again I'm more likely to believe in santa.

Happy Evolving creatures. -tips hat-

[leshinor]

I don't know if this has been mentioned but i saw something about us evolving from monkeys or something...
We didnt. When it comes to the evoloutionary tree thingy it got to a point where humans went one way and primates went the other, we did not poof from orangotangs (sp w/e) into humans... maybe giners did, but thats a completely different debate.

Another thing, God doesn't exist, I'm not going too far into detail about it and Idc what arguments you give me... but I believe in evoloution, you want my reason? God isn't real.
And there is no opening my mind to the opposite tbh.

Also you say we believe in natural selection = evoloution because it makes sense.... does the idea of a God really make sense?

Bring me some glowing bones and I may review my opinion.
Then again I'm more likely to believe in santa.

Happy Evolving creatures. -tips hat-

Well, do you believe that molecules and atoms exist then? As far as I know there is no actual proof that they exist either! It was a concept that started to make sense in science and since they were able to explain a lot of things with it they went with the flow and adopted all these theories. However, there is no evidence of molecules and atoms. Nobody has seen them or at least experience them in any way right? So why would people believe that and especially scientists? Because it was logical. So, if somebody manages to explain that God exists using logical arguments we should believe him right? Even without any actual proof.

[EvilWolf]

I don't know if this has been mentioned but i saw something about us evolving from monkeys or something...
We didnt. When it comes to the evoloutionary tree thingy it got to a point where humans went one way and primates went the other, we did not poof from orangotangs (sp w/e) into humans... maybe giners did, but thats a completely different debate.

Another thing, God doesn't exist, I'm not going too far into detail about it and Idc what arguments you give me... but I believe in evoloution, you want my reason? God isn't real.
And there is no opening my mind to the opposite tbh.

Also you say we believe in natural selection = evoloution because it makes sense.... does the idea of a God really make sense?

Bring me some glowing bones and I may review my opinion.
Then again I'm more likely to believe in santa.

Happy Evolving creatures. -tips hat-

Adda skip to the end and completely ignore everything everyone in the thread has said... you deserve a cookie...

EDIT: for once I disagree Leshinor... I believe you can see atoms with an electron microscope...

[Axe Man]

I believe in Creation. the things we see every day there is NO POSSIBLE way that they could have evolved from a non living source from nothing. Even Darwin himself was not fully convinced he introduced it as a THEORY.

[leshinor]

Oh you can! Sorry my bad :serious:
Well my point is that even science cannot prove all of its theories, yet scientists use them as a base. The atom thing was an example. Scientists knew there was such a thing as an atom, a proton, an electron, etc long before they could actually see it, so scientists believed things because they sounded logical long before they could actually experiment on them. Why couldn't the same thing happen with God too. If someone logically explains that God exists couldn't you believe it? I mean there doesn't have to be always an evidence (even though it would help a lot) right?

Edit: lol i just saw your double edit! Well anyway my point remains the same.

[Salt]

Well nature can make new genetic info through changes in the DNA sequence!

Like a mutation? This only scrambles the information already there--it doesn't add anything new. A horse may get longer hair, a shorter snout, or more narrow eyes through genetic mutation, but it will never grow scales.

[Waste]

Adda skip to the end and completely ignore everything everyone in the thread has said... you deserve a cookie...
.

Meh I just wanted an input ^^

[Axe Man]

Oh you can! Sorry my bad :serious:
Well my point is that even science cannot prove all of its theories, yet scientists use them as a base. The atom thing was an example. Scientists knew there was such a thing as an atom, a proton, an electron, etc long before they could actually see it, so scientists believed things because they sounded logical long before they could actually experiment on them. Why couldn't the same thing happen with God too. If someone logically explains that God exists couldn't you believe it? I mean there doesn't have to be always an evidence (even though it would help a lot) right?

Edit: lol i just saw your double edit! Well anyway my point remains the same.

lol yeah sorry it was a glitch.

well does not creation alone prove the existence of a god. I mean if you brought a house it would be absurd to believe it just appeared from nothing one day of course someone built it. How is this any different?

[EvilWolf]

Meh I just wanted an input ^^

Sorry to sound so hostile there... =P

[leshinor]

Like a mutation? This only scrambles the information already there--it doesn't add anything new. A horse may get longer hair, a shorter snout, or more narrow eyes through genetic mutation, but it will never grow scales.

Well, theoretically yes, it can grow scales. But I think that would be too ugly even for natural selection! lol
If a mutation occurs then the sequence of the DNA changes. Depending on the change a different protein might be made. Over millions of years, if many mutations occur and they are favored through natural selection then yes a totally different being than the original can be made. In the example you gave, lets say the horse is needed to survive in water, then the legs might slowly begin to change, then the body and eventually the whole horse will become different. This is because the DNA codes info in a sequence of 4 bases. All DNAs have these 4 bases, it is their sequence that gives the instructions. Like with the alphabet you can form any word you want by rearranging the letters, it is the same with the DNA, you can make anything by rearranging the sequence of these 4 bases. Well the point is that if the DNA is altered enough then it will create smth different. Some scientists even believe that we don't have a common ancestor with the apes (at least not in the near past) but with the dolphins. How's that for a change lol
Maybe tomorrow I should go to the zoo and give a nice speech to the dolphins lol

Edit:
@Axe Man
Yes I get your point and I would like to add a little more to it. If God doesn't exist then I can't help but feel that humanity doesn't have any purpose. Look at the animals. Are we the same with them? Is our purpose for existing solely to reproduce and let our species survive? Our we parts of a huge machine called Nature? But even if we are and our purpose is to keep Nature going, then what is Nature's purpose? Just existing as well?
That could be but then everything in this world that humans and nature have achieved would be meaningless wouldn't it? I cannot but think that there is something else too. Our purpose for being born could not be simply to reproduce and then die in order to give birth to others. There must be a reason that we exist, that the world exists. I am not talking about merely individuals here but humanity in general. So the only logical explanation I can find is God. Our existence has a purpose, maybe in the afterlife or maybe a purpose we cannot comprehend that is related to God. Aristotle said that everything in the world is created for a purpose. For example, a house is meant to shelter humans, a car to transport, a set of clothes to keep a human warm, etc (of course these are my examples not Aristotle's). Thus, he concluded that humanity must also have a higher purpose.
The people that do not believe in God (not any particular religion) must agree to this, there is no higher purpose in humanity. Individually we might seek our daily pleasures and try to live happily but in general Nature, the Universe, Cosmos, whichever you like, has no purpose. It is a well-oiled machine that exists for nothing.
Well I cannot sympathize with that and so I believe there is a God and that He affected evolution.
Creative Evolutionism, right!!!

[Silverleon]

Jeez, you people have such closed minds, mybe it was both, with a bit of A and a bit of B, did you ever stop to think that maybe since both theories can be proven to a certain point then they might be both right?
That one is right doesn't always mean that the other is wrong, maybe they're both right, or there's also a probability that they're both wrong, or there's a 3rd so far unknown answer. remember that we do not know everything, there's a lot of things still unknown.

[leshinor]

Jeez, you people have such closed minds, mybe it was both, with a bit of A and a bit of B, did you ever stop to think that maybe since both theories can be proven to a certain point then they might be both right?
That one is right doesn't always mean that the other is wrong, maybe they're both right, or there's also a probability that they're both wrong, or there's a 3rd so far unknown answer. remember that we do not know everything, there's a lot of things still unknown.

By theories do you mean the theory of evolution and the theory that God created everything?

@Waste
Please don't take any offense. If it sounded a bit harsh I did not mean it to be so! I was just trying to present my opinion! Sorry :P

[Silverleon]

Yes i mean evolution/vreationism, nobody ever stoped to think about both being right/wrong or even tried to think of another possibility.

[EvilWolf]

Yes i mean evolution/vreationism, nobody ever stoped to think about both being right/wrong or even tried to think of another possibility.

Me and Leshinor have been saying that the whole time...

[Silverleon]

What i meant is that MOST people didn't, thus i just wrote everyone,.

[saprintha]

Jeez, you people have such closed minds, mybe it was both, with a bit of A and a bit of B, did you ever stop to think that maybe since both theories can be proven to a certain point then they might be both right?
That one is right doesn't always mean that the other is wrong, maybe they're both right, or there's also a probability that they're both wrong, or there's a 3rd so far unknown answer. remember that we do not know everything, there's a lot of things still unknown.

thank you. my thoughts exactly.::D:

[aezgaga]

I have an other theory :O XD I was in philosophy and we were talking about that and I saw a new theory : That alien come to earth : modified the adn of the monkey to become more productive and make us build and harvest thing for them.... Actually I found that pretty funny but all the thing I heard were matching with both the bible and evolution thing... Like the 2012 thing well they realize that it match ... and That they saw on certain cave walls drawing of lot of little people bring thing to someone bigger than them with flying thing around him.... so maybe that's why everyone though that god is above us :O XD anyway is just an theory like the other but this one is interesting :P

[AyumiBee]

Oh come on it's a debate room we are here to debate! And I have heard of the alien theory :P That's pretty good too :P
Okey what does Budhism say? How did the planet and the animals come to alive?
It's just I can't believe in God I believe in Nature (back to the nature though I hate Rosseau :/ )and some supernatural powers what will never ask you to respect as a god. Yeah back to shamanism :D

[leshinor]

Oh aliens? Hmm I believe that aliens exist (well not necessarily those green things with the huge heads lol) but i don't think they created us in any way. Yet, they might have gotten in touch with ppl in ancient times or even today for all i know! There are many mysteries with ancient Egypt, Greece, America and other countries and civilizations where aliens are playing some role.

But you could say the same with dragons, elves and unicorns right? They appeared in many ancient civilizations as well but as far as we know they do not exist. It is difficult to understand which myths are true and which just fantasy.

Well that's how I feel about the alien theory and I cannot really prove anything nor I am certain about it!

[aezgaga]

So many question with so few answer .... lol

[leshinor]

Well that's normal for such a debate right?

If there were many answers then smth would be wrong. This topic is very complicated and mysterious. Truth is I don't even know if humans will ever be able to answer this question!

But that's what makes it exciting right!!!!!!!!!

[analogZero]

Thank goodness some people are taking to the idea that both are right or wrong. When you play with theories your facts become circumstantial evidence. It's not a matter of who has more facts to support their case, because at the end of it all both are inconclusive. They're both running in a race that has no finish line. They are both equally right and they are both equally wrong.
We might as well decide of string theory or quantum theory, which is the true construct of the universe; or of all religions, which is true. Every creation concept plays with notions, and ideas that can't be sensed, or experienced. We can only imagine what created the universe and life and blahblahblah. If you've picked a side, then guess what, you're as wrong as the person opposing you.

[leshinor]

If you've picked a side, then guess what, you're as wrong as the person opposing you.

Yay we are all wrong :dancing: lol

Well it is true that we are all probably wrong in some way. There are many possible answers, some of them we have found but some we haven't, BUT there is only one truth. The probability that we did find the truth is very low, near zero! So... yeah we are all probably wrong. Which means that we have to keep investigating until we find the truth (if that time ever comes)!

[lee matsu]

and thats why i don't care ...but aside all that the knowledge to support such theories is faith ....truth or no truth in the end if you don't believe what u speaking of is real than there's ......no reason why post such "facts" although in the end i personally believe it's hidden deep within us ....kinda like the mind is a universe on its self ...with theories which are abstracted ideas ....but aside all that is good to learn new things .....

[wi_sam]

If God doesn't exist then I can't help but feel that humanity doesn't have any purpose. Look at the animals. Are we the same with them? Is our purpose for existing solely to reproduce and let our species survive? Our we parts of a huge machine called Nature? But even if we are and our purpose is to keep Nature going, then what is Nature's purpose? Just existing as well?
That could be but then everything in this world that humans and nature have achieved would be meaningless wouldn't it? I cannot but think that there is something else too. Our purpose for being born could not be simply to reproduce and then die in order to give birth to others.There must be a reason that we exist, that the world exists. I am not talking about merely individuals here but humanity in general. So the only logical explanation I can find is God.Our existence has a purpose, maybe in the afterlife or maybe a purpose we cannot comprehend that is related to God. Aristotle said that everything in the world is created for a purpose. For example, a house is meant to shelter humans, a car to transport, a set of clothes to keep a human warm, etc (of course these are my examples not Aristotle's). Thus, he concluded that humanity must also have a higher purpose.The people that do not believe in God (not any particular religion) must agree to this, there is no higher purpose in humanity. Individually we might seek our daily pleasures and try to live happily but in general Nature, the Universe, Cosmos, whichever you like, has no purpose. It is a well-oiled machine that exists for nothing.
Well I cannot sympathize with that and so I believe there is a God and that He affected evolution.
Creative Evolutionism, right!!!


I am 1000% with this guy, I couldn't have put it in a better way.
(rep+)

[Salt]

Well, theoretically yes, it can grow scales. But I think that would be too ugly even for natural selection! lol
If a mutation occurs then the sequence of the DNA changes. Depending on the change a different protein might be made. Over millions of years, if many mutations occur and they are favored through natural selection then yes a totally different being than the original can be made. In the example you gave, lets say the horse is needed to survive in water, then the legs might slowly begin to change, then the body and eventually the whole horse will become different. This is because the DNA codes info in a sequence of 4 bases. All DNAs have these 4 bases, it is their sequence that gives the instructions. Like with the alphabet you can form any word you want by rearranging the letters, it is the same with the DNA, you can make anything by rearranging the sequence of these 4 bases. Well the point is that if the DNA is altered enough then it will create smth different. Some scientists even believe that we don't have a common ancestor with the apes (at least not in the near past) but with the dolphins. How's that for a change lol
Maybe tomorrow I should go to the zoo and give a nice speech to the dolphins lol

This is a very interesting idea. I still don't know that there aren't limits to adaptation/the potential within mutation. Mathematical probability is one element I'd like to explore with this, as well as what determines how DNA is coded--if it's theoretically possible that anything could happen given the appropriate stimulus and resultant mutation, then why do so many organism groups seem to rest so neatly into organized forms? (On this note, I believe there is a distinction between what happens naturally, and what happens when humanity mucks with genetics.) Let me look into this a bit, and I'll see if I can get back to ya.

Perhaps it should be noted (if it wasn't obvious) that I'm operating from a literal Genesis account of creation, which states that there is a God who played a direct and intentional role in the creation of each "kind" of organism, and which seems to imply that each of these ancestor organisms was made fully-formed and functional from the start: thus, life did not evolve gradually from a single ancestor.

[leshinor]

Thank you wi_sam ::D:

@Salt
Yes it is very interesting indeed! Truth is, I found out that much about DNA and the enormous amount of possibilities that exist only 2 weeks ago! If you are to investigate it, it would take a while but it is worth it!

Now, about what science believes on how it all started, well... in the beginning there were no living organisms but slowly some materials and proteins were able to gather together and start functioning as a group. Then they took the from of RNA (which was replacing DNA in those times) so that they could reproduced. During a long period of years, they became so well organized that they formed a living cell, the first living organism and our supposed ancestor. After that, the cell reproduced and evolved. It evolved differently in different areas and so it made different species which evolved again and eventually gave rise to life as we know it today. This is a complicated theory, I tried to make it easy to understand (I hope I succeeded)!

Well that theory is a bit disturbing because it makes me wonder, are we just the result of complicated bonds between some elements? Is there no such thing as a soul? So, I do have a hard time believing it! But I am still very confused over that part :o.o:

[partyprobe]

evolution makes more sence so i go with that end i win

[SmokedBoo]

evolution makes more sence so i go with that end i win

LOL Party!

[Zaraki]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations_by_number_of_membe rs

this is simply christianity as a whole, devided amongst itself because "[people] can't agree upon anything."

At least they still believe that there is only one God that created them. With the other branches of Christianity is if they believe Christ is the Savior, or just a prophet, and if you can lose your salvation and what not. You did bring up a good point on how religions can't agree, but this debate is over how life started not if Christ is God's Son, and what not.

Now what gives me a headache about evolution is one say we came from apes, one says we come from the ocean, and another says we evolved from Cro Magnon, the big bang and so on.

Now God probably did use a big bang to create the universe, but did we evolve from apes or walked out of the ocean I don't think so. Heck in the end we'll know who's right and whose wrong. Either by Judgement Day or a forever sleep.

[LadyHinata]

i believe in Creationism and i have one thing to say about Evolution where is the proof the so called missing links where is the proof for them?

[aezgaga]

i believe in Creationism and i have one thing to say about Evolution where is the proof the so called missing links where is the proof for them?

where is the proof that we just appear''Poof'' like that on earth by god ? I don't count the bible as a proof sorry ¬¬

[LadyHinata]

it is alright everyone has a right to their opinion that is what free will is for anyway

[aezgaga]

it was more a question than an opinion :)

[wi_sam]

where is the proof that we just appear''Poof'' like that on earth by god ? I don't count the bible as a proof sorry ¬¬

AGAIN, the Bible is not the only book sent by God.

[analogZero]

Yay we are all wrong :dancing: lol

Well it is true that we are all probably wrong in some way. There are many possible answers, some of them we have found but some we haven't, BUT there is only one truth. The probability that we did find the truth is very low, near zero! So... yeah we are all probably wrong. Which means that we have to keep investigating until we find the truth (if that time ever comes)!

You're also both right, don't forget.
But if we're going to analyze the potential that somewhere down the road, potentially anywhere from now until _insert timespan_ years later figures out that life suddenly appeared as a result of unfathomable probability, or A mystical entity that exists beyond and/or within our universe, then it's not going to help out school systems by deciding what they need to teach now. That's where the main pin pick of this debate comes from. what to teach the poor children. but that's a different debate.
The futility that comes from this debate as a whole has it's merits in terms of knowledgeable advancement, but in dealing with something as infinite as knowledge...well you're back to square one, stacking building blocks higher and higher until you reach the end of the sky.
A fair question would be, do you find God by holding an absolute faith? or do you find God by exploring that which has been left all around you?
Kinda depends on just what God really is.

[aezgaga]

AGAIN, the Bible is not the only book sent by God.

a book sent by god...... if i try to figure this ... it look funny XD

[mellowguy]

I have read a number of reports in scientific journals as to how life may have began on our planet. I've seen figures of evolution trees, how humans branched off from the simians we know of today. The amount of proof we have of the occurrence of evolution is staggering. The main reason I side with evolution is that it has been proven to exist, through science and more importantly, by logic.

However, logic has not proved creationism wrong. I just mean to say that the burden of proof is on creationism. Faith doesn't explain anything.

[FlrcntKnht]

well lets see the theory of evolution is not supposed to be full proof. Darwin knew it was not all right but that does not mean we should just throw out that data. Nor should we discount because some dudes who wrote a book and said it was God who gave them the book. The fact that the Dates for the Bible are IMPOSSIBLE and i guess we should not look at the Dinosaur bones found as well as carbon dating of said bones. Creationism is not even plausible. Inteligent Design has more credibility then Creationism because it tones down the relation to the Bible and said an Inteligent Designer made everything plu stries to get scientific backing with funds from Religous groups. Evolutionary theory has more justification then Creationism and as an agnostic who believes that we as humans could never ever understand such a concept as God or Aristotle's uncaused cause and to even attempt to try is like slapping him in the face i would have to say that Evolutionary theory was started by this universe and the end result may not even be known by him, but I'm becoming hypocritical trying to attempt to understand God. I was so close to making a point without contradicting myself BLAH...

P.S. Some really good books on the subject
Stephen Gould's Evolutionary Theory
The Flying Spaghetti Monster
Anything by Richard Dawkins
The God Delusion(best refernce for those going agianst Creationism/Intelligent Design)

[leshinor]

well lets see the theory of evolution is not supposed to be full proof. Darwin knew it was not all right but that does not mean we should just throw out that data. Nor should we discount because some dudes who wrote a book and said it was God who gave them the book. The fact that the Dates for the Bible are IMPOSSIBLE and i guess we should not look at the Dinosaur bones found as well as carbon dating of said bones. Creationism is not even plausible. Inteligent Design has more credibility then Creationism because it tones down the relation to the Bible and said an Inteligent Designer made everything plu stries to get scientific backing with funds from Religous groups. Evolutionary theory has more justification then Creationism and as an agnostic who believes that we as humans could never ever understand such a concept as God or Aristotle's uncaused cause and to even attempt to try is like slapping him in the face i would have to say that Evolutionary theory was started by this universe and the end result may not even be known by him, but I'm becoming hypocritical trying to attempt to understand God. I was so close to making a point without contradicting myself BLAH...

P.S. Some really good books on the subject
Stephen Gould's Evolutionary Theory
The Flying Spaghetti Monster
Anything by Richard Dawkins
The God Delusion(best refernce for those going agianst Creationism/Intelligent Design)

Well I've got some questions cause it was a bit confusing :serious:

What do you mean by saying the Dates for the Bible? The Chronological order of the events?

By him do you mean God?

So, wait, what do you believe in? Intelligent Design?
I agree with you that we cannot understand God but we should at least try even though it is futile. We cannot just blindly accept our incapability and do nothing!

[FlrcntKnht]

i would not say that im for intellgent design but i think that God could have been the cause of Evolution and basically Intelligent Design as well as Creationism tries to say that the earth is so many years old. When i was current in the situation like a year ago i think they tries to say the erath was something like 4000 to 6000 years old because of the dates from the bible which was the point i was trying to make by saying it is not possible for th Bible to be right. I believe that Evolution is going to evetually be right once perfected but i think that it will not look anything like Darwinian evolution but more like Lamarc's version, i think that is his name.

ps yes by him i meant God

[analogZero]

i would not say that im for intellgent design but i think that God could have been the cause of Evolution and basically Intelligent Design as well as Creationism tries to say that the earth is so many years old. When i was current in the situation like a year ago i think they tries to say the erath was something like 4000 to 6000 years old because of the dates from the bible which was the point i was trying to make by saying it is not possible for th Bible to be right. I believe that Evolution is going to evetually be right once perfected but i think that it will not look anything like Darwinian evolution but more like Lamarc's version, i think that is his name.

ps yes by him i meant God

The farthest anyone can trace back in written history is roughly 6000 years ago. This is when the written word came into play. Essentially in order for the claim that man kinds appeared at that time, he would've had to learn how to read and write in no time. No problem for God to instill such abilities I suppose, but really, what's the purpose of writing when there's all but two people in the world? It reminds me of people who sit beside each other or in the same room and MSN each other rather than actually saying what you want to say.

[leshinor]

i would not say that im for intellgent design but i think that God could have been the cause of Evolution and basically Intelligent Design as well as Creationism tries to say that the earth is so many years old. When i was current in the situation like a year ago i think they tries to say the erath was something like 4000 to 6000 years old because of the dates from the bible which was the point i was trying to make by saying it is not possible for th Bible to be right. I believe that Evolution is going to evetually be right once perfected but i think that it will not look anything like Darwinian evolution but more like Lamarc's version, i think that is his name.

Yes that is true but don't forget that the Bible was not written by Jesus but by his students. The philosophy and logic of it might be right even though the dates might be off (because they could be made by his students and Jesus Himself).

I think evolutionism is closer to the truth too but still it is far away! Besides, all of our research had been done in the last centuries! This is a very tough question and will give incredible knowledge if answered. But it will take some time... actually it will take a lot of time to be answered!!! Specially if the answer involves God. If He exists, it will take a long time for science to admit that!

EDIT: the msn thing was really funny and very true!!!

[Biff]

Yes that is true but don't forget that the Bible was not written by Jesus but by his students. The philosophy and logic of it might be right even though the dates might be off (because they could be made by his students and Jesus Himself).

true true, the bible wasn't actually written down for about 30 years after Jesus' death, so i think that many things will have been distorted and possibly simplified for people to understand.
think of a game of Chinese whispers (are you still allowed to say that or is it politically incorrect?) you say something to one person and they say it to someone else, and so on, by the time it reaches the last person, only about 20 people later it is completely different, imagine that for 30 years...

back to evolution, i think that Darwin is correct, when you study biology at the smallest levels natural selection is evident.


also, just a ponder, who was or wasn't taught about creationism and evolution at school?

[leshinor]

Well I was taught about both at school. I learned about creationism from a young age and then about evolutionism in high school. Well I had heard about the ape-concept from lower school but nobody really taught me about it.

I believe that the knowledge we get in an early age influences the way we think a lot. Usually, the things we learn when we are young we accept as universal truths while we don't even wager on the things that contradict them. For example, I was taught about Christianity from a young age and it took me a long time to start questioning christianity's beliefs. I am not saying that christianity is wrong, I am simply noticing that we need to be careful because we might find that some of the things we have been believing for years might be wrong.

[Zaraki]

true true, the bible wasn't actually written down for about 30 years after Jesus' death, so i think that many things will have been distorted and possibly simplified for people to understand.
think of a game of Chinese whispers (are you still allowed to say that or is it politically incorrect?) you say something to one person and they say it to someone else, and so on, by the time it reaches the last person, only about 20 people later it is completely different, imagine that for 30 years...

back to evolution, i think that Darwin is correct, when you study biology at the smallest levels natural selection is evident.


also, just a ponder, who was or wasn't taught about creationism and evolution at school?

i was taught both i went to a christian school from k-8 then public 9-12....old testament was written before Christ, and new testament was written during Christ's time on earth and after his death. no idea when someone decided to combine them into one book.

[Viduus]

So far I haven't seen anything that can invalidate Evolution in this thread that can't be shot down by 8th grade science. I'm going to stick to the theory which has solid proof (yes, there are some things left to be explained but there IS solid proof), and not the one which relies strictly on "Because God told me so".

[Lince]

I hate each extreme too much to take a solid side.
I say God or whoever created the universe with a BIG BANG and then evolution took place with his/her/its supervision, forming the human race.
But I'm a freak, so whatever. :P

And any religious person who can't agree with that.. WHY?

[leshinor]

So far I haven't seen anything that can invalidate Evolution in this thread that can't be shot down by 8th grade science. I'm going to stick to the theory which has solid proof (yes, there are some things left to be explained but there IS solid proof), and not the one which relies strictly on "Because God told me so".

Then what do you think about the following? Do you believe God exists?

If God doesn't exist then I can't help but feel that humanity doesn't have any purpose. Look at the animals. Are we the same with them? Is our purpose for existing solely to reproduce and let our species survive? Our we parts of a huge machine called Nature? But even if we are and our purpose is to keep Nature going, then what is Nature's purpose? Just existing as well?
That could be but then everything in this world that humans and nature have achieved would be meaningless wouldn't it? I cannot but think that there is something else too. Our purpose for being born could not be simply to reproduce and then die in order to give birth to others. There must be a reason that we exist, that the world exists. I am not talking about merely individuals here but humanity in general. So the only logical explanation I can find is God. Our existence has a purpose, maybe in the afterlife or maybe a purpose we cannot comprehend that is related to God. Aristotle said that everything in the world is created for a purpose. For example, a house is meant to shelter humans, a car to transport, a set of clothes to keep a human warm, etc (of course these are my examples not Aristotle's). Thus, he concluded that humanity must also have a higher purpose.
The people that do not believe in God (not any particular religion) must agree to this, there is no higher purpose in humanity. Individually we might seek our daily pleasures and try to live happily but in general Nature, the Universe, Cosmos, whichever you like, has no purpose. It is a well-oiled machine that exists for nothing.
Well I cannot sympathize with that and so I believe there is a God and that He affected evolution.

[FlrcntKnht]

well in response i say who is to say that there is not. Existentially speaking the purpose could be one of personal identification or transcendence beyond this reality. God does give purpose to this world but only in a temporal sense. The higher purpose is just something that i will agree can not be understood or may not even exist but the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence to get all cliche but then again same could be said for the existence of God

[leshinor]

well in response i say who is to say that there is not. Existentially speaking the purpose could be one of personal identification or transcendence beyond this reality. God does give purpose to this world but only in a temporal sense. The higher purpose is just something that i will agree can not be understood or may not even exist but the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence to get all cliche but then again same could be said for the existence of God

That is kinda hard to grasp! Do you mean that we cannot prove that there is no purpose just by saying that we do not have evidence of it? :dizzy:
Well, anyway, it is too late for me to process stuff like that! I'm going to bed! :moon:

I hope tomorrow I'll get it :o.o:

[Viduus]

Then what do you think about the following? Do you believe God exists?I'm not sure how you couldn't infer this from my post, but no, I don't.

And as for the entire "we have to have a purpose" crap... why do we? I suppose I could see how people may have a problem seeing that in the long run what they do is absolutely pointless, but that doesn't mean there HAS to be some fancy shmancy higher calling. It's kinda sad that people use religion to escape the truth of life.

[leshinor]

I'm not sure how you couldn't infer this from my post, but no, I don't.

And as for the entire "we have to have a purpose" crap... why do we? I suppose I could see how people may have a problem seeing that in the long run what they do is absolutely pointless, but that doesn't mean there HAS to be some fancy shmancy higher calling. It's kinda sad that people use religion to escape the truth of life.

I never said we have to have a purpose just that I believe we have a purpose. It's up to you to decide! ::D:

Then, another question: do you believe that there are such things as souls and other supernatural stuff?

[Viduus]

I never said we have to have a purpose just that I believe we have a purpose. It's up to you to decide! ::D:

Then, another question: do you believe that there are such things as souls and other supernatural stuff?Nope. We're all just products of electrical signals firing in the brain.

[SmokedBoo]

Nope. We're all just products of electrical signals firing in the brain.

I was wondering why I heard a buzzing sound in my head. And here was me thinking it was the T.V. still on. Thanks for clearing that up Vid! *thumbs up*

[leshinor]

Nope. We're all just products of electrical signals firing in the brain.

Aren't you feeling really depressed with such an opinion? lol

[Viduus]

Aren't you feeling really depressed with such an opinion? lolWhy would I be depressed? I at least don't have any illusions of grandeur :)

Edit: Take a look at it this way, would you rather think that life is just a cycle and thus be proud of anything you accomplish, or believe that there's some higher purpose in life and feel like you never lived up to that?

[leshinor]

Why would I be depressed? I at least don't have any illusions of grandeur :)

Edit: Take a look at it this way, would you rather think that life is just a cycle and thus be proud of anything you accomplish, or believe that there's some higher purpose in life and feel like you never lived up to that?

But what would I be proud of if all we are is a combination of elements? If the world is nothing more than a machine that functions for no reason? Everything is meaningless then. The world would be the way it is now because the atoms had certain interactions with each other. Then, everything we do is predetermined. Evolution occurred because certain atoms bonded together and slowly formed what is called life. But living creatures are not really alive (or I should say they don't have a free will) then because their actions are predetermined. For example, I am making some choices because it is in my character to make them. But my character is formed by the experiences I had and maybe by my DNA. However, the experiences I had were bound to happen because of the interactions between the atoms. Thus, my choices were bound to happen. It is like billiard. Once the shot is taken, you can from then on determine what will happen and which balls will go where by doing some complicated math. It's the same in the world. Once it has started its destination is certain. But it never started and maybe it will never end! It's like a machine doing the same thing over and over again. So, everything in humanity is pointless and things such as pride are nothing more than another interaction between atoms.
I don't think I really explained it well! Point out what you didn't understand so I can explain it better :dizzy:

[RezenatorZ]

i think the misconception of evolution is that we evolved directly from apes, but the truth is we evolved from a close ancestor of apes and humans, something that evolved into both apes and the beginnings of humans. there is more science behind evolution then there is for creationism if there is any for creationism. im a science guy so i think that makes my intentions clear. peace

[SmokedBoo]

i think the misconception of evolution is that we evolved directly from apes, but the truth is we evolved from a close ancestor of apes and humans, something that evolved into both apes and the beginnings of humans. there is more science behind evolution then there is for creationism if there is any for creationism. im a science guy so i think that makes my intentions clear. peace

Is your name Bill Nye by any chance?

[Viduus]

But what would I be proud of if all we are is a combination of elements? If the world is nothing more than a machine that functions for no reason? Everything is meaningless then.The world, life, universe functions because of interactions between atoms, molecules. Who says this is meaningless? I find the fact that life can exist amazing to begin with. To have the exact right conditions for life (as we know it) to start is very minuscule. I think that's meaningful enough.
The world would be the way it is now because the atoms had certain interactions with each other. Then, everything we do is predetermined.Because creationism doesn't mean that everything we do is predetermined? I'm pretty sure I've heard often that there's a Great Plan by God, doesn't that make everything we do predetermined and not under our control?

Evolution occurred because certain atoms bonded together and slowly formed what is called life. But living creatures are not really alive (or I should say they don't have a free will) then because their actions are predetermined. For example, I am making some choices because it is in my character to make them. But my character is formed by the experiences I had and maybe by my DNA. However, the experiences I had were bound to happen because of the interactions between the atoms. Thus, my choices were bound to happen.No. You have certain things written in your DNA, of course, but that doesn't mean you're a robot. You still have a mind and that works differently than anyone else's mind, how you live your life is completely up to you. Really the difference is that I don't believe that there's some part of you that's a soul that keeps on living after you die. Really doesn't religion and is absolute certainty that once you die you either go to heaven and hell make you act more like you have no free will? Everything you do ends up being in order to go to one place or the other. How is that not more constricting?

It is like billiard. Once the shot is taken, you can from then on determine what will happen and which balls will go where by doing some complicated math. It's the same in the world. Once it has started its destination is certain. But it never started and maybe it will never end! It's like a machine doing the same thing over and over again. Sorry, I really don't get these analogies.

So, everything in humanity is pointless and things such as pride are nothing more than another interaction between atoms.Just because you think that the basis of life happened from something a little more complex then some benevolent being waving his hand and saying let there be light doesn't mean you're an autonomous robot.

[analogZero]

But what would I be proud of if all we are is a combination of elements? If the world is nothing more than a machine that functions for no reason? Everything is meaningless then. The world would be the way it is now because the atoms had certain interactions with each other. Then, everything we do is predetermined. Evolution occurred because certain atoms bonded together and slowly formed what is called life. But living creatures are not really alive (or I should say they don't have a free will) then because their actions are predetermined. For example, I am making some choices because it is in my character to make them. But my character is formed by the experiences I had and maybe by my DNA. However, the experiences I had were bound to happen because of the interactions between the atoms. Thus, my choices were bound to happen. It is like billiard. Once the shot is taken, you can from then on determine what will happen and which balls will go where by doing some complicated math. It's the same in the world. Once it has started its destination is certain. But it never started and maybe it will never end! It's like a machine doing the same thing over and over again. So, everything in humanity is pointless and things such as pride are nothing more than another interaction between atoms.
I don't think I really explained it well! Point out what you didn't understand so I can explain it better :dizzy:

you might have to. It's as easy to argue that anything predetermined is in actuality random. Saying that any creation is predetermined is bringing things back to square one, saying god created something, then the next person says no it didn't. There's nothing solid to say that the formation of life was an act of will. In fact in billiards it's possible to control the ball so as to control the progression of the game. If you look at things mathematically, even the most random of events can be calculated, but it takes an act of God to break the very fabric God's created and sew it back together. Don't look at an otiose event as something unworthy of interest. Even nothing is something and must be quantified.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by leshinor View Post
But what would I be proud of if all we are is a combination of elements? If the world is nothing more than a machine that functions for no reason? Everything is meaningless then.

has anyone heard of the philosopher at oxford university called Richard Dawkins?

one of the things he says is that because of the way we have evolved we look at the world through "purpose tinted spectacles" which essentially means because of the way our brains have developed we want to find a purpose in the things around us, because when evolving on the plains of Africa we needed reasons to travel and find food, etc...
now that we can do other things than survive we try to find meanings for things that have no meaning.

as an extra i think people who are involved in this discussion will find this link very interesting, and if you browse through some more of the BBC pages these is lots of stuff on this discussion, the link is below.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7885670.stm

[FlrcntKnht]

I know of Richard Dawkins and if anyone on this thread has not heard of him i suggest viewing some of his writing. I think that you are over generalizing what he says though or maybe i just interpret it differently. Humans had a reason to to live which was to find food and to travel with your food. He was saying that now that we have our physical needs met we need to find a new meaning and now that we are looking for this purpose we are finding that there are smaller possibilities for there to even be a purpose in this life. I know it is a thing that give some a chill that our lives in all its complexity and chaos has absolutely no meaning but I do not feel this way and I think Dawkins is trying to get closer and closer to notion that life is meaningless. Just take a lesson from Tyler Durden "First you have to give up, first you have to *know*... not fear... *know*... that someday you're gonna die."

[JesiGash]

Well first off I would like to say that I am all for the Creation "theory". Why? Well, there is some much scientific and historical proof that the Bible is real that it's not even funny. The first verse in Genesis, chapter one says, "In the beginning, GOD created the heavens and the earth."

I'm an atheist, so that pretty much sums up what I think... But that's too short of a post. Personally, I believe we evolved from apes (and/or various other animals). Firstly, because there is scientific proof of it. I'm sure if you use the nifty thing known as Google, you can find stuff like that since I currently don't have proof or anything. And, what proof do we have of God? The bible? It's a freaking book, yo. Some guy on crack could have written it.

Hey Ryuuzaki, how much do you actually know about the Bible? Did you know that it has been proven by secular historians that the Bible was written by 40 different people over hundreds of years, in several different countries and in several different languages and there is not ONE contradiction? Do you know what the odds of that happening are? They are equivalent to sticking a blind man in a stadium filled with poisonous jelly beans (save for one) and asking him to find the one that is not poisonous! That is pretty ridiculous! Also did you know that the Bible is THE ONLY book that can 100% accurately describe the past, explain the present, and pre-scribe (foretell) the future? Lets see tarot cards do that! I mean there are over 300 different prophecies in the Bible and everyone, that don't foretell something happening in our lifetime or in the future, has been proven to have come true! Most, if not all, of those prophecies were written hundreds of years before they happened! Tell me, could some guy on crack write a book like that?:eyes:

[JesiGash]

1- was nothing
2- Kaboom
3- Everything
4- Tadahh

any question?

Yeah, what created the boom, where did the materials come from, and how did those get there?

[leshinor]

The world, life, universe functions because of interactions between atoms, molecules. Who says this is meaningless? I find the fact that life can exist amazing to begin with. To have the exact right conditions for life (as we know it) to start is very minuscule. I think that's meaningful enough.
Because creationism doesn't mean that everything we do is predetermined? I'm pretty sure I've heard often that there's a Great Plan by God, doesn't that make everything we do predetermined and not under our control?

No. You have certain things written in your DNA, of course, but that doesn't mean you're a robot. You still have a mind and that works differently than anyone else's mind, how you live your life is completely up to you. Really the difference is that I don't believe that there's some part of you that's a soul that keeps on living after you die. Really doesn't religion and is absolute certainty that once you die you either go to heaven and hell make you act more like you have no free will? Everything you do ends up being in order to go to one place or the other. How is that not more constricting?

Sorry, I really don't get these analogies.

Just because you think that the basis of life happened from something a little more complex then some benevolent being waving his hand and saying let there be light doesn't mean you're an autonomous robot.

Yeah, I guess I didn't explain it well enough :serious: I will try to reexplain it!
I will start with our character and what we call free-will.
How do we make decisions? We act based on our character.
How is our character shaped, though? I would say it is based on the experiences we had in our life and maybe our DNA.
Then, were our characters shaped randomly? According to the above yes.
You can say that different people interpret the same experience differently. However, what made them interpret it differently? It was their character. So, when they were first born, they should interpret all experiences the same way, which leads again to the statement that our characters were based on the events that happened in our life. Then, what is free will if our characters, which is to say us, depends upon other things?
In my previous post I went a bit deeper with it but I will not go this time because if there is a flaw in my argument then it is all wrong! lol


I went to the site but he didn't really say much so I will search some more for him and see what I can find!

[BoneTosser]

Just thought I'd add this link tho the thread.

http://bobbie-the-jean.deviantart.com/journal/23586617/

[leshinor]

Just thought I'd add this link tho the thread.

http://bobbie-the-jean.deviantart.com/journal/23586617/

Now, those are some serious reasons to reject evolution. I completely agree!

[SmokedBoo]

Just thought I'd add this link tho the thread.

http://bobbie-the-jean.deviantart.com/journal/23586617/
LMAO!! I agree with a lot of those reasons.

[Eggroll]

I believe in creationism, i mean come on! Evolutionism is ppl evolving from a rock (then to the premortaily <----spelt wrong soup and so forth)
im not from a rock......who may i add is not a living organism

[Viduus]

Well first off I would like to say that I am all for the Creation "theory". Why? Well, there is some much scientific and historical proof that the Bible is real that it's not even funny. The first verse in Genesis, chapter one says, "In the beginning, GOD created the heavens and the earth." How in the bloody hell is that scientific and historical proof?

Hey Ryuuzaki, how much do you actually know about the Bible? Did you know that it has been proven by secular historians that the Bible was written by 40 different people over hundreds of years, in several different countries and in several different languages and there is not ONE contradiction?You do realize the bible was originally written in latin, and was considered a rare commodity till printing presses made it available to the population (by which time translation was fairly commonplace).

Also did you know that the Bible is THE ONLY book that can 100% accurately describe the past, explain the present, and pre-scribe (foretell) the future?I'm searching for for some sort of witty response, but you've boggled my mind to the point that I'm speechless. The bible predicts events as well as astrology. You can always find something in hindsight and say see, see!

Lets see tarot cards do that! What in the world do tarot cards have to do with anything here?

I mean there are over 300 different prophecies in the Bible and everyone, that don't foretell something happening in our lifetime or in the future, has been proven to have come true! Most, if not all, of those prophecies were written hundreds of years before they happened! Straight up, I don't believe you. At all.

Tell me, could some guy on crack write a book like that?This is the one part of your long post which doesn't seem completely made up. You're right. The bible wasn't written by some guy on crack. Does that make the bible the absolute truth? Not in the least bit.

Yeah, what created the boom, where did the materials come from, and how did those get there?I don't feel like like typing out 10 pages on the subject of the Big Bang, so here's a link instead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_big_bang





Now onto someone who has some interesting ideas and wasn't just spouting the same regurgitated archaic religious talk..

I will start with our character and what we call free-will.
How do we make decisions? We act based on our character.
How is our character shaped, though? I would say it is based on the experiences we had in our life and maybe our DNA.
Then, were our characters shaped randomly? According to the above yes.DNA isn't random though, it's a combination of what your parents had.

You can say that different people interpret the same experience differently. However, what made them interpret it differently? It was their character. So, when they were first born, they should interpret all experiences the same way, which leads again to the statement that our characters were based on the events that happened in our life.This is assuming that we all interpret everything the same when born, which I believe is a fallacy. Let's continue though...
Then, what is free will if our characters, which is to say us, depends upon other things?Do you have the ability to say yes and no? Then you have free will. Do you have the ability to say I want that, or I don't want that? Then you have free will. Do you have the ability to take whatever someone says to you, contemplate it and then draw some conclusion from it? Then you have free will.
Is our character shaped by the experiences in life? Certainly. Does that mean that the way we think about those experiences are pre-determined? Certainly not.


Just thought I'd add this link tho the thread.

http://bobbie-the-jean.deviantart.com/journal/23586617/
Well written :)

I believe in creationism, i mean come on! Evolutionism is ppl evolving from a rock (then to the premortaily <----spelt wrong soup and so forth)
im not from a rock......who may i add is not a living organismPlease refrain from posting things which are downright lies.

[leshinor]

DNA isn't random though, it's a combination of what your parents had.

Our DNA is indeed randomly made! Of course, most of it is the same as other human's (it's not like a fish will be born!) and even more so as our parent's DNA but the part that makes us unique is randomly selected!


This is assuming that we all interpret everything the same when born, which I believe is a fallacy. Let's continue though...

Now, this is quite debatable! The argument is basically like that:
The moment we are given life do we already have a character or are we all the same. I need to point out here that the moment we are given life is not the moment we are born. Babies can already interpret information even inside the womb!!!
And, if we have a character before hand does it depend on our DNA or maybe a soul...?


Do you have the ability to say yes and no? Then you have free will. Do you have the ability to say I want that, or I don't want that? Then you have free will. Do you have the ability to take whatever someone says to you, contemplate it and then draw some conclusion from it? Then you have free will.
Is our character shaped by the experiences in life? Certainly. Does that mean that the way we think about those experiences are pre-determined? Certainly not.


It is kinda hard to say whether we have free will or not because from all the above we actually haven't come to a conclusion on the definition of one's self! What do we mean by saying I, you, etc! I say we leave this question for later, after we have solved the above questions!

[JesiGash]

1.) How in the bloody hell is that scientific and historical proof?

That isn't. I just threw that in there in attempt to stay on topic while using the Bible as reference.

2.) You do realize the bible was originally written in latin, and was considered a rare commodity till printing presses made it available to the population (by which time translation was fairly commonplace).

Well, considering that the most common language of the time was probably Latin. However, this part of my post wasn't so much to discuss where and what language the Bible was written as to point out the numerous author and not having any contradictions.


3.) I'm searching for for some sort of witty response, but you've boggled my mind to the point that I'm speechless. The bible predicts events as well as astrology. You can always find something in hindsight and say see, see!

Can you tell me about ONE time that the Bible referred to something in the past-tense?


4.) What in the world do tarot cards have to do with anything here?

This was one of my, "OH SNAP!... But not really!" moments. Just a personal quirk.

5.) Straight up, I don't believe you. At all.

If you have time read this. The author has a "one up" on me and my research.
http://www.allabouttruth.org/bible-prophecy.htm


6.) This is the one part of your long post which doesn't seem completely made up. You're right. The bible wasn't written by some guy on crack. Does that make the bible the absolute truth? Not in the least bit.

Originally, my post was meant to prove that the Bible wasn't written by a crack head (some post by some guy on the first page). While he didn't claim it was written like that, I just wanted to be sure he KNEW it wasn't.

7.) I don't feel like like typing out 10 pages on the subject of the Big Bang, so here's a link instead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_big_bang

If you are going to post a link anywhere, please make sure it has a credible author. Wikipedia, has a tendency to have posts that run something like this; "I was watching this anime about a guy.... Oh look! Cookies!". I take it as opinions, nothing more.

8.) Now onto someone who has some interesting ideas and wasn't just spouting the same regurgitated archaic religious talk..[/QUOTE]

Better in and out than not in at all.:ramen:

[analogZero]

1[COLOR="Indigo"]Well, considering that the most common language of the time was probably Latin. However, this part of my post wasn't so much to discuss where and what language the Bible was written as to point out the numerous author and not having any contradictions.


2Can you tell me about ONE time that the Bible referred to something in the past-tense?


3If you have time read this. The author has a "one up" on me and my research.
http://www.allabouttruth.org/bible-prophecy.htm If you are going to post a link anywhere, please make sure it has a credible author. Wikipedia, has a tendency to have posts that run something like this; "I was watching this anime about a guy.... Oh look! Cookies!". I take it as opinions, nothing more.


1. The numerous authors of the bible are a bit problematic. It's been mentioned that there are missing stories that were never included in the bible. There have also been debates over the influence of the church on the contents of the bible. Many stories written by credible authors aren't recognized by the vatican. Of course these are substantiated claims that certain stories are false, and some are later proven false and others simply aren't spoken of. Still it begs to wonder if a religious organization can pick and choose what is said about it's past, then how are you to know what truly happened.
Secondly, the old testament was a copy of the hebrew bible that held greater support to christianity. Not surprising, as Jesus himself was born a Jewish man, and that christianity is a simple deviation from Judaism. This makes it easy to see how mistranslation is suspected in the bible's authenticity.

2.One of the more common mistakes in writing is changing tense. Any good writer (and I presume the bible had some) would stick to one tense rather than wandering around. This neither supports nor denies the answer to your question, but I thought it should be mentioned that this is truly a rhetorical question.

3. First, it's good to question sources, but the problem here is that your link (to which I have a question in a moment) has no sourcing material, while wikipedia does. If you scroll to the bottom of most wiki pages, there's a section called references. It's a bibliography that will direct you to further backings of the information cited. If you doubt it, go to the source. I didn't seem to notice any citations on the link you provided.
now about the link. Is it just me or does Daniel's prophecy happen before he writes about it? how is that prophetic? I read the dates of 6 BC and 160 BC as the possible dates of it being written, while it's prophecy occurs during sometime around 500 BC...maybe I'm missing something here.

[JesiGash]

1. The numerous authors of the bible are a bit problematic. It's been mentioned that there are missing stories that were never included in the bible. There have also been debates over the influence of the church on the contents of the bible. Many stories written by credible authors aren't recognized by the vatican. Of course these are substantiated claims that certain stories are false, and some are later proven false and others simply aren't spoken of. Still it begs to wonder if a religious organization can pick and choose what is said about it's past, then how are you to know what truly happened.
Secondly, the old testament was a copy of the hebrew bible that held greater support to christianity. Not surprising, as Jesus himself was born a Jewish man, and that christianity is a simple deviation from Judaism. This makes it easy to see how mistranslation is suspected in the bible's authenticity.

2.One of the more common mistakes in writing is changing tense. Any good writer (and I presume the bible had some) would stick to one tense rather than wandering around. This neither supports nor denies the answer to your question, but I thought it should be mentioned that this is truly a rhetorical question.

3. First, it's good to question sources, but the problem here is that your link (to which I have a question in a moment) has no sourcing material, while wikipedia does. If you scroll to the bottom of most wiki pages, there's a section called references. It's a bibliography that will direct you to further backings of the information cited. If you doubt it, go to the source. I didn't seem to notice any citations on the link you provided.
now about the link. Is it just me or does Daniel's prophecy happen before he writes about it? how is that prophetic? I read the dates of 6 BC and 160 BC as the possible dates of it being written, while it's prophecy occurs during sometime around 500 BC...maybe I'm missing something here.

1a.) Interesting. I'll have to look into that more.

2a.) Well that was exactly the question I was trying to get across (only you put it better). Why indeed would the Bible refer to anything in the past tense except to explain the events that had happened during that time?

3a.) I guess the author of that article didn't do a very good job of explaining what he was talking about. What he was trying to say was that secular historians have been trying to push that point across when, in fact, it holds no meaning. Daniel was writing his book around/between 529-522 B.C. There are records of Alexander the Great obtaining a copy of Daniel during his "visit" to Jerusalem in about 332 B.C. So the prophecy did take place after it was written. (I'll be sure to clarify the article next time.)

As for the web page not having sources, a valid point. However, the author is a member of the organization that runs the web page. This type of website is just like writing a book. If it's information in your own words you don't necessarily need sources. I do agree that there should be some way to cross reference the information on the site.

[analogZero]

1a.) Interesting. I'll have to look into that more.

2a.) Well that was exactly the question I was trying to get across (only you put it better). Why indeed would the Bible refer to anything in the past tense except to explain the events that had happened during that time?

3a.) I guess the author of that article didn't do a very good job of explaining what he was talking about. What he was trying to say was that secular historians have been trying to push that point across when, in fact, it holds no meaning. Daniel was writing his book around/between 529-522 B.C. There are records of Alexander the Great obtaining a copy of Daniel during his "visit" to Jerusalem in about 332 B.C. So the prophecy did take place after it was written. (I'll be sure to clarify the article next time.)

As for the web page not having sources, a valid point. However, the author is a member of the organization that runs the web page. This type of website is just like writing a book. If it's information in your own words you don't necessarily need sources. I do agree that there should be some way to cross reference the information on the site.


I recall an article or video I came across not too far back, that discussed what was mentioned in my first point. I'll see if I can find it, once I recall where and what it was. Leerock mentions something similar in the "is the bible real" thread, I believe, so maybe you can squeeze it out of him too.
That takes me to the second part of my post, it holds true that most everything we say here isn't backed up by reference either. Kinda hard to back track what you can't backtrack, huh? so while it is helpful to have references on links, it's also open to speculation regardless. I doubt many people have gone through the references pages on the wiki big bang, much less back tracked the actual pin point dating of the book of daniel. So no worries there.

[Viduus]

That isn't. I just threw that in there in attempt to stay on topic while using the Bible as reference.Ok, you still haven't explained how scientific and historical proof backs up the bible though.

2.) You do realize the bible was originally written in latin, and was considered a rare commodity till printing presses made it available to the population (by which time translation was fairly commonplace).

Well, considering that the most common language of the time was probably Latin. However, this part of my post wasn't so much to discuss where and what language the Bible was written as to point out the numerous author and not having any contradictions.It wasn't a matter of latin being the most common language, it was a matter that if you wanted to be a holy man, you needed to learn latin. My point in it was that your statement of it being written out in 40 different language is false.

3.) I'm searching for for some sort of witty response, but you've boggled my mind to the point that I'm speechless. The bible predicts events as well as astrology. You can always find something in hindsight and say see, see!

Can you tell me about ONE time that the Bible referred to something in the past-tense?
No I can't, but that would be because I haven't read the bible (nor will I). My point was that it's easy to take a look at something that happened, then read the bible, and connect things which may actually have no real connection. It's very easy to read something and then say "Ah-ha, see! That was totally written here!" but the truth of the matter is that you can only infer that's what it meant, you don't actually know.

4.) What in the world do tarot cards have to do with anything here?

This was one of my, "OH SNAP!... But not really!" moments. Just a personal quirk.Very well, it just seemed like you were attempting to connect evolutionists with retarded crap like tarot cards which is totally bogus. Just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean I'm all hocus pocus dark magic tarot card reading person :P But that's all a side note.

5.) Straight up, I don't believe you. At all.

If you have time read this. The author has a "one up" on me and my research.
http://www.allabouttruth.org/bible-prophecy.htm
I'll skim through it at some point at see what it has to say. My answer to this would most likely be the same as what I had for 3) though.

6.) This is the one part of your long post which doesn't seem completely made up. You're right. The bible wasn't written by some guy on crack. Does that make the bible the absolute truth? Not in the least bit.

Originally, my post was meant to prove that the Bible wasn't written by a crack head (some post by some guy on the first page). While he didn't claim it was written like that, I just wanted to be sure he KNEW it wasn't.We agree on this point here.

7.) I don't feel like like typing out 10 pages on the subject of the Big Bang, so here's a link instead: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_big_bang

If you are going to post a link anywhere, please make sure it has a credible author. Wikipedia, has a tendency to have posts that run something like this; "I was watching this anime about a guy.... Oh look! Cookies!". I take it as opinions, nothing more. You're right, Wikipedia shouldn't be relied on, however for the most part they have accurate statements and is a good place to gain some quick info. If you wish I will find some more credible sources about the subject (as credible as the internet can go).

8.) Now onto someone who has some interesting ideas and wasn't just spouting the same regurgitated archaic religious talk..

Better in and out than not in at all.:ramen:
No, it's really not, but I must say that you were significantly better in this post that your last :) I'm not sure I'll post about the bible in here any more though since there's the other topic for it.


Now, onto part 2!

Our DNA is indeed randomly made! Of course, most of it is the same as other human's (it's not like a fish will be born!) and even more so as our parent's DNA but the part that makes us unique is randomly selected!It's partly random, but from a fixed pool of genes. You can't randomly get something your parents didn't have.

Now, this is quite debatable! The argument is basically like that:
The moment we are given life do we already have a character or are we all the same. I need to point out here that the moment we are given life is not the moment we are born. Babies can already interpret information even inside the womb!!!
And, if we have a character before hand does it depend on our DNA or maybe a soul...?Or, as I said in my very first post here, it could just be a product of the electrical signals in our brain. I still believe that even as babies, even as embryo's we're still all different.

It is kinda hard to say whether we have free will or not because from all the above we actually haven't come to a conclusion on the definition of one's self! What do we mean by saying I, you, etc! I say we leave this question for later, after we have solved the above questions!Now we border on the metaphysical which is a can of worms I don't really wanna open. I will say that our definition of free will may different, and that could perhaps be why our points of view differ.

[minato2085]

I'm an atheist, so that pretty much sums up what I think... But that's too short of a post. Personally, I believe we evolved from apes (and/or various other animals). Firstly, because there is scientific proof of it. I'm sure if you use the nifty thing known as Google, you can find stuff like that since I currently don't have proof or anything. And, what proof do we have of God? The bible? It's a freaking book, yo. Some guy on crack could have written it.

im thinking the samething :ramen:

[madman]

evolutionism

it is possible that there was a guiding hand involved whether it be a god, gods, aliens, or the flying spaghetti monster.

also creationism is not a theory, a theory is an educated guess with supporting evidence, creationism has no evidence.

[leshinor]

Before going on with this argument I would like to clear this up. Does anyone believe purely in creationism (no evolution at all) while having decent and logical points that can back up his/hers thinking? I am not asking for any scientific proof but at least a reasonable explanation!
As stated before, I myself believe in evolution but with God playing an important role in it!

Now into the previous debate:


It's partly random, but from a fixed pool of genes. You can't randomly get something your parents didn't have.

Yes you can't get very diverse but still you have no control over what genes you inherit, therefore, if your character somewhat based on your DNA, then you can't change that part because it is random.


Or, as I said in my very first post here, it could just be a product of the electrical signals in our brain. I still believe that even as babies, even as embryo's we're still all different.

But, the electric signals in our brain are affected by our DNA!



I think I will make a new thread to talk about this because we are getting seriously off topic here! I know this argument started as a means for us to agree on some fundamental points in order to come to a conclusion whether God exists or not, which would help us with the debate evolutionism vs creationism but we have too many things to discuss before coming to a conclusion about these fundamental things! lol
Besides, I think we cannot agree because we haven't cleared up some things and we ended up talking about different topics at the same time!!!
Anyway, I will think about making a new thread. If you come up with a good idea go right ahead and create one!

[FlrcntKnht]

WOW holy crap i was gone or like 3 Days and this forum blew up. The only thing I want to say is that THERE ARE CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BIBLE JesiGash as well as VERY AMBIGUOUS BACKING from science such evidence that events like mass flood and such have happened in history.

and ps im going to start a thread so that this thread has the possiblity of getting back ontrack for the biggest contradicition in the Bible :D please join me there :dancing:

[JesiGash]

WOW holy crap i was gone or like 3 Days and this forum blew up. The only thing I want to say is that THERE ARE CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BIBLE JesiGash as well as VERY AMBIGUOUS BACKING from science such evidence that events like mass flood and such have happened in history.

and ps im going to start a thread so that this thread has the possiblity of getting back ontrack for the biggest contradicition in the Bible :D please join me there :dancing:


Those so called "contradictions" in the Bible come from people who look at one verse and compare it to another then say, "Hey, Look! The Bible IS wrong!" It makes me laugh.:happy: Try this: Find a "contradiction" then read the entire book it's in. After that, read through the references that relate to that verse elsewhere in the Bible. Then come tell me it's a contradiction. If you do that with an open mind, you will NOT find ANY contradictions in the Bible. Heck, you still won't find any unless you refuse to do it. If there is still a contradiction in your mind, let me explain it in lamen terms for you. :D

[xantok]

well someone once told me this: "if you take apart a toaster and put it in a mixing pot... whats the chances of getting a toaster after you finish spinning it... things may have been made through evolution... but something was guiding it all the way" personally i believe the theory of a "god" is to give people comfort and to explain the unexplained..

[Ramrok]

lol so many threads involving God directly and indirectly.... well lets see what you science freaks know...

1. Not sure how 'humans evolved from monkeys' came from... i believe i read sum1 say they found a monkey that looked more like a human? well anyways how can u prove that its evolution... have you been beside it from its birth to its death and seen it evolve? what if its some lab experiment reject? what if its just a monkey that had its hair burned in some fire?

2. Big Bang Theory? how do you find proof for that? its not like you can really dig up proof from the ground or see it in the stars...

3. Chicken or the Egg... well which came first?

such 'scientific findings' have been proven wrong time and time again... world is flat, no civilization past the ocean, god past the sky... cmon seriously... you guys put so much emphasis on the bible being wrong simply because it falls in the category as 'a book' which MUST be written by man alone, yet you put your faith in discoveries and scientific theories like its absolute truth or written in stone.

[soulten]

2. Big Bang Theory? how do you find proof for that? its not like you can really dig up proof from the ground or see it in the stars...

such 'scientific findings' have been proven wrong time and time again... world is flat, no civilization past the ocean, god past the sky... cmon seriously... you guys put so much emphasis on the bible being wrong simply because it falls in the category as 'a book' which MUST be written by man alone, yet you put your faith in discoveries and scientific theories like its absolute truth or written in stone.

Actually if I'm right they can find radiation or something from the big bang. Something along those lines.

[Ramrok]

and you consider radiation as proof for big bang?
all that theory is, is some famous scientist probably made that theory up and due to his fame and popularity or political power, they believed he was correct... probably surrounded by a room full of scientists who had no clue, but were also not opposing him and just went along with the theory.

[soulten]

and you consider radiation as proof for big bang?
all that theory is, is some famous scientist probably made that theory up and due to his fame and popularity or political power, they believed he was correct... probably surrounded by a room full of scientists who had no clue, but were also not opposing him and just went along with the theory.

They used a big machine. It may have been red light or something? All I know someone speculates they have some evidence of the big bang.

But I believe there is no cause to the big bang and can't be.

[Ramrok]

well how can we prove that the big machine is ment to proove the big bang theory? how can we as humans know how to make a machine that can determine the big bang, what factors are used to determine it? its just a machine with lights and readouts and beeps... how would that proove to us that the response of the machine would be in regards to the big bang theory? machines have certain functions and programs they are assigned to do... how would we know to make a machine to function for the purpose of providing proof of the big bang or anything related? sure it picked up radiation... that could mean lots of things...

[soulten]

The reason I'm being so vague is because I don't remember, it was a while ago. If I'm right it was also an accidental discovery.

[analogZero]

"all that theory is, is some famous scientist probably made that theory up"
probably...maybe...cuz, you know.
go speculation.

machines aren't created just to give off blips and bloops like the bat computer, then spit out some punch card like a 1950's sci fi B movie. Then "scientician's" make assumptions on what a multi punched card could mean based off random data...wait, what is this machine designed for again?

[leshinor]

Well about the Big Bang, I am not sure about it but it is quite the hypothesis... There is logical proof behind it but still that is a big assumption.
Evolution though is proven pretty well. There are many findings and many theories match. To support this even more, lab experiments have positive results, no they do not consist of making a monkey evolve...
Of course though, science always proves itself wrong. Einstein found Newton to be wrong and he even said that some other scientist will prove him wrong after some time. However, we are approaching some truths through science. The theories we have now might be totally wrong but the progress in science made so far is truly remarkable and will help the future generations to come closer to the truth.
So, don't blame science to be totally dump. It has solid proof for some matters.
That's it for the defense of science from my part. If you read the previous posts you will see my opinions so I won't restate them yet again...

[carolyn07]

...creationaism for me!,.

charles darwin tol his sone before he died that he should believe in God and that what he wrote must not be believed!,.he said it back!,.♥

[Starfire]

I remain undecided and neutral about this, even asa a believer in christ.

[wi_sam]

:\ oh gawd!!

I still belive in Creationism, even as a believer of GOD.

[SinXxX]

I believe in God and leans on the possibility of Evolution.

I believe God can be in every form: energy, rock, light, etc. I believe God made evolution possible. I believe God value us as 'intelligent beings'. I believe God can also take it away, in time. I believe God can take a human form, just like how he personified as Jesus I love. He's everything.

I don't believe that something came out of nowhere. Even miracles in bible (AFAIK) came from different aspects of using things (material/situation) to create 'miracles'.

To be honest, I don't care if we evolved from monkeys. Our evolution from them happened many years ago, even before people started writing about history, heck even before people even became more advance in their approach in/for survival. Why do I care when my ancestors started to act human? Why does it have to concern me?

[leshinor]

Wow! I can't believe this thread got revived! This is the very thread that made me stick to af like crazy! Anyway, I shall not post my opinion yet again (I've done countless times in previous pages), just a comment to SinXxX.
You expressed you opinion nicely but in the end messed it up a bit... I don't think you really meant what you said here: "Why do I care when my ancestors started to act human? Why does it have to concern me?". Your whole post proved that you did care...! It is in our nature to search and wonder where we came from. I think that what you really wanted to say is that you don't get depressed over the fact that our ancestors might be monkeys. You can accept that and won't be bothered. Of course you'd want to know but it won't irritate you if that was the truth since it happened thousands of years ago.

[SinXxX]

Nah, you're talking about my curiosity about human origins :)

Those last sentence are more of "Would the truth about ancestor change me (my outlook in life)? I think it wouldn't" - Well, atleast my feelings when I was typing that.

[Salt]

I'd like to point out that all of this hubbub about where life came from is actually quite important. How and why it all began are two of the most significant questions one can ask, because the answers bear dramatic implications for how one lives his/her life.

Suffer me a ridiculous analogy. Let's say a man wakes up in a strange room somewhere, and can't recall anything about how he got there or why. He checks the only door and sees that it's locked. He shouts a hello or three, but nobody answers him. Upon investigation, he finds the room filled with all manner of things to occupy his time: video games, television, stacks of great novels and treatises, paint and a canvas, puzzles, and many others. There is a refrigerated room filled with food and drink, a cot rests nearby, and a partition hides a toilet. Realizing that there is no immediately recognizable way of getting out of the room, he decides to stop worrying about the hows and the whys and sits down for a read.

But if that man was to discover, somehow, that outside his room was a council convening to discuss their torturous and sadistic human-modification experiments, in which he - and the rest of his friends and family whom the council had captured - would play a part, do you think he would be sitting down with a good book carefree? Absolutely not. The information would forever change how he dealt with his situation. His priorities would be drastically altered; his manner of living would be entirely different.

All analogies fail at some point. But hopefully this one carries its message clearly enough: the reasons we are here bear more weight than we know. All of our purpose and morality is tied up in this issue. How we live our lives now is directly dependent on how and why we're alive at all. Burying our heads in the sand of our day-to-day and saying "This is all that matters, just live your life d00d" is a fallacy in thinking, and can only hurt us in the long run. (Assuming evolution and naturalism are true, and we're only here through random processes, such a statement would be correct enough as far as it went. But knowing it's true and living a certain way as a result is wiser than taking the biggest risk of our lives and hitting the target by chance.)

I say, if the truth matters so much, we go find it. I understand that's easier said than done. But then, perhaps the difficulty of the search is reflective not of its object, but its method. Maybe we're just looking at the wrong thing, in the wrong way. Maybe what we need is a source of information outside of our limited perspective. Maybe we need the Mind that created us (gasp!) to tell us Its version of the story.


On an entirely unrelated note, everyone get donuts!

*passes out several boxen*

[Kunesume]

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I take it he is a god believer. I am for Evolutionism. Creationism is a load of crap to me. Jesus being another guy along time ago that wanted to believe that there was some greater force that what he was seeing in this world as wrong. He has a good Idea to things and I feel his way is a good way to live your life, but he didn't come up with Creationism and the bible. He died at the age of 24. He wasn't that old and not the knowledgable. Very spiritual, but not that knowledgable.

This topic is a topic that has gone on for many of years. Even thoughs of Scientology that combind the possible and the impossible into believeing in a what Jesus wanted people to believe in and what was altered by the Hebrews and mordernization of the following decades alter his belief and bended it to their will to make it suitable to there way of life.

In thus, that was a bit off topic, Creationism as that "GOD" created Heaven and earth. As humans as his supreme creation that soon laid waste to the world he supposely created. I believe in the way of evolution and Natural selection rules the universe along with star dust as the one true "G.O.D." What many don't know is that star dust is the main ingredient when it comes to life. A planet and its inhabits all have traces of star dust within them. Stars breathe life and death into a planet. I don't believe we are the only ones in the universe and that god created us and only us.

I do respect Christianity and all religions, but Christianity is overrated and tained by mordernization that people have never read the complete bible living there life on the imcomplete version altered by the hebrews 100 years after the death of Christ.

[SmokedBoo]

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I take it he is a god believer. I am for Evolutionism. Creationism is a load of crap to me. Jesus being another guy along time ago that wanted to believe that there was some greater force that what he was seeing in this world as wrong. He has a good Idea to things and I feel his way is a good way to live your life, but he didn't come up with Creationism and the bible. He died at the age of 24. He wasn't that old and not the knowledgable. Very spiritual, but not that knowledgable.

Just like Evolution is a load of crap to me. Jesus wasn't the only one, mate. Jesus was the Son of God and taught about the love God has for us and of the faith we must keep. He also spoke of end time events, some of the prophecies having already come true. By Jewish law, a priest could not start his ministry until he was 30 years of age. Pertaining to prophecy, a day is one year, so a week would be seven, "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off..." Daniel 9:26"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and obliation to cease..." Daniel 9:27. Score = 10, week = year, so threescore = 30, two weeks = 14; during the middle of one week he was stopped, so he ministered for 3 1/2 days (years). His ministry stopped at his death, meaning he was 33 1/2 years old when he died. That, and prophecy itself, is another discussion all together. No, Christ didn't creat Creationism, but I do believe he played a hand in making the Earth and everything in it. The Torah was written by several Hebrews as a means to preserve God's word so that when their time past it was not lost, and could be given to all men everywhere. Christ was very knowledgeable, he was telling priests of his Father's love in a way they had either forgotten or never even considered before at the age of 14. That's not just spiritual. How many 14 year olds do you know that can do that?

This topic is a topic that has gone on for many of years. Even thoughs of Scientology that combind the possible and the impossible into believeing in a what Jesus wanted people to believe in and what was altered by the Hebrews and mordernization of the following decades alter his belief and bended it to their will to make it suitable to there way of life.

Of course they did. Have you had a look at the Ten Commandments? Or any of the laws? The reason the Word of God was changed was so that it would fit the ideals of man. They'll say that it's just to make for an easier read. No. The KJV was written back in the early 1600s after King James had scholars translate directly from the Torah. The KJV was written at a 5th grade reading level. The NIV, for example is written at a 12th grade reading level, and is missing over 620,000 words that were in the original translation. No it wasn't a mistake, and no it's not because a letter was smudged and they couldn't decipher it; it was done on purpose to taint the Word.[/QUOTE]

In thus, that was a bit off topic, Creationism as that "GOD" created Heaven and earth. As humans as his supreme creation that soon laid waste to the world he supposely created. I believe in the way of evolution and Natural selection rules the universe along with star dust as the one true "G.O.D." What many don't know is that star dust is the main ingredient when it comes to life. A planet and its inhabits all have traces of star dust within them. Stars breathe life and death into a planet. I don't believe we are the only ones in the universe and that god created us and only us.


Humans are not his supreme creation. No one knows what exactly his supreme creation is. God created the heavens, the Earth, the firmament, the universe, the angels. We were made a little lower than the angels. How can we be his supreme creation if we're "a little lower"? From what I can tell, you're saying that the theory of evolution, the creator of said theory denying it and reverting back to Creationism, and star dust, as opposed to the Almighty, is a god? Darwin himself said that he was wrong about his evolution theory and that all should believe in God. Stars do not breathe life and death into a planet. God breathes life, and can take it away. We have no way of knowing whether or not God created life elsewhere in the universe. It says he created worlds, so I believe that there are other places with life, but far from our reaches. I don't think we will ever know if there is or isn't.

I do respect Christianity and all religions, but Christianity is overrated and tained by mordernization that people have never read the complete bible living there life on the imcomplete version altered by the hebrews 100 years after the death of Christ.

I do respect ones beliefs, but I do not respect something that attempts to make a mockery of my God. All modern religions are overrated, including Evolutionism, but it is not beyond our reach to read the entire Torah. The Torah itself was not altered by the Jews; the only thing that has changed is the fact that the Jews now consider Daniel to be a minor prophet. As far as the words and testimonies, it is still the same after all these years.




*If anyone has questions concerning my post, then PM me about it. I hold to the fact that religious debates, or ones pertaining to a certain belief, theory, or philosophy DO NOT belong on an anime forum. It's not really a debate on a forum when there are only 2-3 users going back and forth at each other, with posts every now and then from someone that's only a sentence long saying "I believe such and such....".

[Zero Ichi]

Boo is right, but to be in spirit since i posted in the thread, i believe in evolutionism, for the mere fact of scientific proof, dont get me wrong im not dissin God, im just saying the word of God is a form of comfort to us, in times when were scared for ourselves or for others we pray, and to keep that comfort of being protected we believe in Him, so in a way i think God exsited and believing in him helps us feel stronger than we normally couldnt do by ourselves

[ryuganatsu]

:moon: here ill explain myself....

i believe in creationism.....as anyone have suggest lately we cant say its both god create some things and we humans evovle from it...its just wrong according to the bible genesis....he created two humans....

anyway..charles darwin wanted to takeback his theory when he nearly died ut it was already late ...a lot have already believe on it

WELL SCIENTISTS ARE JUST HUMANS OK....WHAT IF THEY JUST CONCLUDED THIS CONCLUSION...BECUZ THEY CANT FIND THE THE ANSWER...PEOPLE SOMETIMES CONSTRUCT LIES JUST TO PROVE THIER SELVES TO OTHERS RYT?....NO ONE WAS THERE WHEN IT HAPPENED SO NO ONE CAN SAY....

I BELIEVE ON WHAT I BELIEVE...WORRY THE FUTURE GUYS....
WHAT IF THERES HELL AND HEAVEN ITS UR CHOICE TO WHERE YOU WANT TO GO.....

anyway if there no such things then so what...just in case..ill get prepared...

[Stray_Pube]

I only have one serious question.

Ok, lets say Genesis is correct in every way: A God spontaneously comes into existence, randomly decides to create Earth/sun/stars/animals then two humans, Adam and Eve, all in six days, then rested on the seventh.

Adam bangs Eve and she gives birth to Cain and Abel. No daughters, and no other females' If you literally follow the Bible or other religious texts concerning them.

HOW THE HELL DID THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE OF 6.5 BILLION COME INTO EXISTENCE?

[SmokedBoo]

I only have one serious question.

Ok, lets say Genesis is correct in every way: A God spontaneously comes into existence, randomly decides to create Earth/sun/stars/animals then two humans, Adam and Eve, all in six days, then rested on the seventh.

Adam bangs Eve and she gives birth to Cain and Abel. No daughters, and no other females' If you literally follow the Bible or other religious texts concerning them.

HOW THE HELL DID THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE OF 6.5 BILLION COME INTO EXISTENCE?

If you actually read more than just the first 3 chapters then you would know that Cain and Abel were NOT Adam and Eve's only children. They had many children, and back then, brothers, sisters, and cousins could all marry and have children. It was not uncommon during that era or the one after the flood for one to do so.

[aezgaga]

If you actually read more than just the first 3 chapters then you would know that Cain and Abel were NOT Adam and Eve's only children. They had many children, and back then, brothers, sisters, and cousins could all marry and have children. It was not uncommon during that era or the one after the flood for one to do so.

eum... that sound funny... they married ?and Btw.... dosn't making kids with your sister or brother fuck something and have lot of chance of making deformed or dead at birth kids ? And ... i Assume that They weren't That evolve... the first day they were ''created''... they know how to talk... how to do everything ?... That would fuck up all the technologie... and human race wouldn't waste like million of years before know how to make a fire...

And something else... Where are the Dinosaure :pissed: !!! they appear with adam ? XD that sound funny too :P

[Stray_Pube]

Also, if you follow the Bible, it says that the Earth is 6000-8000 YEARS OLD! WTF. We have geological PROOF that says the Earth is about 4.5 BILLION years old. Which is correct, some religious BELIEF or scientific FACT?

[SmokedBoo]

Also, if you follow the Bible, it says that the Earth is 6000-8000 YEARS OLD! WTF. We have geological PROOF that says the Earth is about 4.5 BILLION years old. Which is correct, some religious BELIEF or scientific FACT?

If you follow the genealogy, yes the earth is about 8000 years old. For me, it is MY RELIGIOUS BELIEF. I say MY for a reason. Some religions believe the earth is billions of years old. They can even prove it by using a variation of the Bible that has, instead of "And the evening and the morning were the first day." it's "And the night and the day were a day." This is called the Gap Theory. By saying "a day" people can deduce that God made the seas and all that is in them on one day. Millions of years later, God made land animals that walked upon the earth. This is a mixture religious BELIEFS and scientific FACT. It's hard for me to believe that it took the earth millions and millions of years to evolve into what it is today. This would include going into the Big Bang Theory, since, for millions and millions of years the universe was compact and no bigger than the size of the period at the end of this sentence. Scientists, and humans in general have no proof whatsoever that this ever occurred, yet they vehemently deny the act of a higher power. Evolution is no different. They have no solid proof that we even evolved. Every patch of evidence that has come through a lab has been proven to be fraud, saying that they've found the "Missing Link" only to have it found out that the "Missing Link" was indeed a fake. We adapt, not evolve.

[SkY93]

I believe in creationism because if we really evolved from a monkey then the monkeys should still be evolving today they have been around for as long as we have. And i believe in God our heavenly father, as the creator of the heavens and the earth.

And sciece never explains how is that earth seem to be the only planet that supports life,or how in the beginig those single celled organisms came to be. nothing can evolve from nothing. someone has to create the first for there to be a second.... And sciece has holes in there theory too. and the limitations of science and human knoledge to me proves god is there and created us

[Zaraki]

eum... that sound funny... they married ?and Btw.... dosn't making kids with your sister or brother fuck something and have lot of chance of making deformed or dead at birth kids ? And ... i Assume that They weren't That evolve... the first day they were ''created''... they know how to talk... how to do everything ?... That would fuck up all the technologie... and human race wouldn't waste like million of years before know how to make a fire...

And something else... Where are the Dinosaure :pissed: !!! they appear with adam ? XD that sound funny too :P

well think back then the only people on the earth were adam and eve's children. now how would there be other people to marry and reproduce? back then something like that would be normal, especially after the Flood.

i Assume that They weren't That evolve... the first day they were ''created''... they know how to talk... how to do everything ?...
where did it ever say they knew everything after being created? i believe originally the only jobs man had to do was name the animals and take care of the garden.

[shadowmaks]

Just a question for the believers of creationism.

God gave birth (not literally) to everything including us, but who created god? He had to have come from somewhere, just like us.

[SmokedBoo]

Just a question for the believers of creationism.

God gave birth (not literally) to everything including us, but who created god? He had to have come from somewhere, just like us.

This question can go both ways. Where did that infinitesimal speck come from? Someone had to have created. If you say that God could not have just been there, that he had to be created, then that dot that supposedly exploded could not have just been there, it had to be created.

[Stray_Pube]

We can prove indirectly of the Big Bang by looking at the background radiation and heat signitures. And yes, science can explain the existance of these organisms. Called amino acids. Ever heard of them? Its basic biology. And by saying that Earth is the only planet that supports life is HIGHY IGNORANT because of your and others extremeist religious beliefs.

We dont know if there are other life forms out there because we are only bound by Earth and not-as-advance technology. Earth being the ONLY planet to support life is HIGHLY IGNORant as well. Even if there is a God, why only make ONE planet have life while the TRILLIONS of other planets/moons have no life.

And besides, Science has proven the Church WRONG so many times.

[wi_sam]

We can prove indirectly of the Big Bang by looking at the background radiation and heat signitures. And yes, science can explain the existance of these organisms. Called amino acids. Ever heard of them? Its basic biology. And by saying that Earth is the only planet that supports life is HIGHY IGNORANT because of your and others extremeist religious beliefs.

We dont know if there are other life forms out there because we are only bound by Earth and not-as-advance technology. Earth being the ONLY planet to support life is HIGHLY IGNORant as well. Even if there is a God, why only make ONE planet have life while the TRILLIONS of other planets/moons have no life.

And besides, Science has proven the Church WRONG so many times.

Science is evil. And this thread is about Creationism/Evelutionism, science and religion, not CHURCH.

But, you are right about, God didn't make us alone in this creation (everything that exist), and it is very absurd to believe we re the only inteligent creatures.

[gunslinger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8VFlXElN5E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-ySBSVAIYQ&feature=related

only the dead know if theres god its what gives us hope but who knows make the best of the time you got on this planet. im for Evolutionism

sciencie evil? it gave us computers for us to be able to make anime vids with various programs it gave us tvs. wi_sam see science is not evil.

[Stray_Pube]

Science is evil. And this thread is about Creationism/Evelutionism, science and religion, not CHURCH.

Um, Im referring CHURCH to that religious extremist group called Christians/Catholics/anything related to them.

They have murdered millions of people because those people doesnt believe the same way they do. Look at that abortion doctor who was assassinated by that one guy. Look back at the Renaissance, where the Church murdered millions of people because they disagreed with them. And you people are still doing that!

Science is based on facts not beliefs, you cannot prove that God/gods/goddesses exist or disprove it. If you can prove or disprove something then it doesnt exist. If I cant use any of my five senses on something, then it isnt there.

I dont care if I offended any of you. I hate religion and it needs to be destroyed. We wouldnt be having this 'jihad' in the Middle East, there wouldnt have been a Holocaust, there almost wouldnt be any wars, only if we abolished religion.

[gunslinger]

Um, Im referring CHURCH to that religious extremist group called Christians/Catholics/anything related to them.

They have murdered millions of people because those people doesnt believe the same way they do. Look at that abortion doctor who was assassinated by that one guy. Look back at the Renaissance, where the Church murdered millions of people because they disagreed with them. And you people are still doing that!

Science is based on facts not beliefs, you cannot prove that God/gods/goddesses exist or disprove it. If you can prove or disprove something then it doesnt exist. If I cant use any of my five senses on something, then it isnt there.

I dont care if I offended any of you. I hate religion and it needs to be destroyed. We wouldnt be having this 'jihad' in the Middle East, there wouldnt have been a Holocaust, there almost wouldnt be any wars, only if we abolished religion.


im christain but im not religious at all so you can say i dont belive in that religion bs. i think its funny chruch what proof do you got chruches reply a book. wow a book with no proof and scientificly impossable for all those events to happen.

[Zaraki]

im christain but im not religious at all so you can say i dont belive in that religion bs. i think its funny chruch what proof do you got chruches reply a book. wow a book with no proof and scientificly impossable for all those events to happen.

.....then how does that make you a Christian?

[mblizzow]

it makes them a christian so they can identify with something even if they do not participate. but i know that science gives me more answers than "becasue God said so" and that is why i choose to take the scientific knowledge that i have and use it to "worship" in my own way. i am totally not a fan of organized religion and their past actions, "Convert or Die!!!!!" not my bag.
PS. i do love Penn and Teller Bullshit tho! it is the best show!!

[mellowguy]

Just a question for the believers of creationism.

God gave birth (not literally) to everything including us, but who created god? He had to have come from somewhere, just like us.

I have a funny belief about that. I read a scientific report saying that the universe, should it prove to slow it's expansion, will actually end up condensing into another little ball and making another big bang. Obviously, that would imply that until the end of time, the universe will explode than condense than explode, in a wonderful cycle. So, in theory, if g-d came into existence at some prior big bang, he would be there for every ensuing beginning of the universe. Since we have no idea how many bangs there could have been before the recent one, he could have been here for trillions of millennium before us, and will last till the end of time.

Anyway, back on topic, who says that g-d created the exact right conditions for life to occur, and let it grow. Evolution being a big tree, and g-d being the being who planted the seed?

The thing is, I like religion and science, I don't want to dis either one. Being Jewish, I have some experience on what stupid, evil people do with religion, but intelligent people of faith should, and do, work with science all the time.

[wi_sam]

Each and every relegion was made and sent to us for one reason and no other, and that is to improve our lives and our persons. But given the fact that we, humans are the smartest animals on earth, we had to quostion even that and to manipulate the facts and alter the truth. I'm not Christian, and I do not know much about Christianity, but you can't say that a religion is stupid, a religion's FOLLOWERS might or might not be stupid. And that depends on the extreme-ism, which happens to be in every aspect of life. Believe it or not my religion have a very high rate of those, and that's why it have the worst reputation.

Also, gunslinger honey, I was being sarcastic.

[Zero Ichi]

yes wi, people take things too seriously to notice if it was sarcasm, but like i said before i believe in evolutionism, religion to me is just a guide book in how to better ourselves as wi has said, we needed to believe in something to make it easier on our psyche, the feeling that there is someone watching over us, be it christianity, buddhism, or whatever religion you follow

[Nightmare]

I personally believe in evolution.

[Waste]

Evolution.

Sorry but the whole idea of God is incomprehensible to me. I literally can not wrap my head around the story without thinking that it is just that. A story.

I mean he was a convenient guy to have around when you were a Roman emperor or even Tudor king or queen because then every time you slipped up or someone asked you why you could push the blame onto God.

My belief is that all those who wanted control in the past based their beliefs in a big guy in the sky because it was just an easy scapegoat to pull out when you were being challenged, and a good way your keep people in line. "If you break my rules you go to hell. Simples."

So no I don't think God created us. I think a mass of elements collided and bang.
Life.
Although wether or not I place my beliefs firmly in evolution is a different story, but if I had to chose between a 'man' who floats on a cloud and science then I'd pick science every time.

Waste.
x

[Zaraki]

got to wonder though if both "beliefs" are correct though. been thinking about it for a little while now. to me evolution and creationism are the same coin, i say that because for evolution how did the bacteria appear? evolutionist keep saying they don't believe in creationism because there is a God who just made everything poof into existence. then my question is how did the bacteria that supposedly started life come into existence? like the big bang theory if space was nothing but darkness, how was there any energy what so ever to create the big bang. this can go for the same thing about God who created him or how did he come into existence?

i know the thought is incomplete but hopefully someone gets something out of that.

[ryuganatsu]

:mad: im mad and really pissed

does anyone of here understand the meaning of faith?..i mean...look....

faith is something we cling on to live in this world...something we cant see.....

something that we hoped to happen...and we would definitely wait for it to happen...

to save someone from darkness....its faith that kept you from doing it....

then someday we ll finally had cause weeed never loose faith people who dont have faith are dead ones .....

i have faith in god...and i believe in hell....so even if god doesnt exist...ill still continue having faith in him...havent you read the Revelations?...the man who wrote the bible....live a hundred years ago...BUT the things that he wrote on the bible is the exact thing that is happening right...

he said in the last days there would a change in climate...desasters will happen...and a lot of people...will comit sins...and question god...well that is what happening ryt now isnt it?..

[leshinor]

Um, Im referring CHURCH to that religious extremist group called Christians/Catholics/anything related to them.


Christians are not extremists... there are Christian extremists but not all Christians are like that....... just wanted to point that out. I don't know what you wanted to say but it sounded as if all Christians are extremists...

They have murdered millions of people because those people doesnt believe the same way they do. Look at that abortion doctor who was assassinated by that one guy. Look back at the Renaissance, where the Church murdered millions of people because they disagreed with them. And you people are still doing that!

These people may call themselves Christian but in actuality, they do not follow Christ's beliefs at all. It wasn't Christians who did these terrible things, it were some bastards that sought for power...

Science is based on facts not beliefs, you cannot prove that God/gods/goddesses exist or disprove it. If you can prove or disprove something then it doesnt exist. If I cant use any of my five senses on something, then it isnt there.


The question is, can you rely on your five senses??? Can you feel a electromagnetic waves? I sure can't feel them... Does that mean that they do not exist? Besides, don't we use only the 10% of our senses, or something like that?

I dont care if I offended any of you. I hate religion and it needs to be destroyed. We wouldnt be having this 'jihad' in the Middle East, there wouldnt have been a Holocaust, there almost wouldnt be any wars, only if we abolished religion.

Hmm... isn't that the point where you say sorry if I offended anyone's beliefs... :o.o::o.o::o.o:



he said in the last days there would a change in climate...desasters will happen...and a lot of people...will comit sins...and question god...well that is what happening ryt now isnt it?..

That is happening indeed, but it's always been happening... I do not believe that the existence of God can or should be proven by any means other than our own reasoning. Humans evolve (or progress, whichever you like...) with time and effort. We slowly gain more knowledge as a species. I believe there will be a day, if we do not destroy ourselves in the process, that humans will be intelligent enough to comprehend whether there is a God or not by thinking it out. We've got the means of having such intelligence, we just don't know how to use them. We only use a tiny portion of our brain's capacity...

[alsharid]

Ever since the day I registered on this site, the only debate that never died was this. *sigh* I am getting bored of it. By the way, you better not send me hate comments or stuff like that. I truly dislike immature brats who bug me continously just because I believe in something they don't.

Within the past century, the theory of evolution has been taught, particularly in Western schools, as fact. While there is much controversy surrounding the conclusiveness of evolution, our response does not seek to disprove the theory nor repaint it in a faith-based light.

It should be noted that volumes have been written on the subject; they reflect a spectrum of positions including scientific skepticism of evolution to scriptural defense of it. If you are interested in the issue, we suggest that you examine it from several angles before you draw your conclusions.

Rather, our response aims to clear up areas of evolution that cannot be reconciled with the teachings of Islam, while acknowledging areas that may or may not be accurate – the Truth being known only to Allah. We hope that if our answer is found to be satisfactory, you will consider it as further proof of the soundness of the Islamic doctrine, particularly when compared with other creeds that demand “leaving the intellect at the door.”

To begin: the most important fact to bear in mind is that Allah alone controls ALL affairs. Allah is Qadeer, the Absolute Controller, of every event that has taken place, is taking place, and will take place. Nothing happens outside His will.

Nothing happens before Allah wills, nor after He wills. Nothing happens more than He wills, nor less than He wills. Nothing happens in a different manner than He wills. A snowflake does not fall in the arctic except by the will of Allah; a grain of sand does not blow across the desert except by His permission. A molecular mutation in a genetic code does not occur except by His power and control.

Allah alone causes life, and Allah alone causes death. Every living thing in the universe has been given life by Allah, and He alone is sustaining every second of its life. If a species survives better than another in a particular environment, it is because Allah allowed it to live more days, and He willed for its progeny to continue.

Allah has both a Sunna (usual way of making things happen), and He has a Qudra (ability to do anything even if it contradicts the usual order of things). He controls both cause and effect. Allah can will an effect to happen without a cause, and He can will a cause to take place but with no effect.

Regarding the former, the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) once fed an entire army to its fill with a single pot of food, due to Allah’s Blessing (baraka) and not due to any perceivable cause, such as more food being added to the pot, etc. Similarly, the Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) was thrown into an enormous fire by the wicked King Nimrod, but Allah willed for the fire to be cool for him, and thus he was not harmed. Allah removed the quality of burning from the fire, thereby overruling its effect. Both cases illustrate the Qudra of Allah, whereas water’s typical freezing at 0 degrees Celsius illustrates His Sunna, though it does so only by the will of Allah.

Allah is both transcendent and imminent in His qualities. Among the evolutionists, the role of “nature” or “natural selection” is confined to an absolutely transcendent and unconscious force that driven by an ill-defined “will to live.” It is not governed by wisdom, mercy, or justice. This is not Allah.

Furthermore, as we described the absolute control that Allah exhibits over His creation, it is impossible for Him to have started creation and then let it continue on its own. In other words, “random mutation,” if we are suggesting this as a means by which Allah might cause the origin of a new species from its cousin, is not absolutely random in that it cannot act outside the power of Allah.

In practical terms, if we take the theory of Evolution as a means by which Allah diversifies life on earth to show us His majesty and ability, then He alone, for instance, causes a nucleotide base to be deleted or added in a DNA sequence, thereby causing a frameshift mutation, which leads to the birth of a new species, which represents an evolutionary superior to its genetic predecessor, which passes on its DNA to its progeny, which results in a subsequent mutation, ad infinitum. Furthermore, Allah not only starts this process but He also sustains and directs every second of its execution and development.

Evolution is a huge subject; we naturally cannot do justice to it in a few paragraphs.

It is important how we think we were created, because it reflects our understanding of Allah. If I think that Allah created the first seeds of life and then “stepped back” from His creation, I am deluded as to the reality of my Sustainer. As such, I will not be able to worship Him correctly, with the proper level of reverence, and I may even consider there to be powers that act outside of His will. To think that something other than Allah has inherent power and can function beyond His power is a form of shirk, associating partners with Allah – the only unforgivable sin.

Furthermore, Evolution can help to explain how life functions, but it will never explain why it functions and exists. Only the prophets of Allah, those who have been selected by Allah to transmit knowledge of the unseen world to us that we otherwise could never access, are able to teach us the purpose for our existence and show us the way to Success.


COPIED FROM AN ISLAMIC SITE

And if a person is about to insult me some way. Please keep it to yourself. I don't won't our views on religion to interfere with our shared love of anime.

[leshinor]

Wow! Thanks Alsharid for bringing up the Islamic point of view as well because it seems like we were all concentrating on science's and Christianity's versions of the story only.

Well, the first question I got from this is the following:
I everything that happens is willed by Allah, aren't our thoughts and actions willed by Him as well? So, do we really have any free will or are we mere puppets that Allah directs?

[alsharid]

The questioned you asked is one I asked myself in the not so distant past. It made me sit and wonder for days. I kept checking site after site to find an answer that made sense to me. I finally did.


Each human being has been given the ability to choose his/her own path in this life and to follow either what is right or to follow what is wrong. If a person chooses to do something good and is able to follow through and perform that deed, then it is only because Allah has allowed it. The same is true if a person has chosen to perform a bad deed. He/she is only able to perform that deed if Allah allows it to happen.

If Allah allows an event to occur, whether it is an evil action or a good one, it does not mean that He has forced us to do it. We have chosen it and Allah has allowed it to come to pass for reasons, which He Alone fully understands. As Muslims, we expect only goodness and justice from Allah and it would be wrong for us to judge, with our limited understanding.

The One who possesses unlimited knowledge and understanding of all things is only Allah Almighty. I suggest you read the part of Surah 18 (al-Kahf; The Cave) of the Holy Qur’an that relates the story of Prophet Moses (pbuh). It is narrating his story when he accompanied one of God’s wise servants, in the hopes of learning from him. This servant performed many deeds that seemed wrong and unjust to Moses but, as Moses learned later, there was great wisdom behind each action.

As Muslims, we do not challenge God’s infinite wisdom with our own limited perceptions of events. By God’s mercy and justice, we are only punished for deeds that we knew were wrong beforehand, but insisted on committing them anyway. Allah will not hold someone to account for something they did out of ignorance or unintentionally. If, however, we know an act to be forbidden, yet insist on performing it, then we will be held accountable for it. Allah will either punish us for that or forgive us.

Because Allah gives whom He wills, we only achieve what is allowed by Allah. He has the power to enforce His will whenever or however He wants. We, on the other hand, have very little power to enforce our will or to ensure our plans come to fruition. We cannot control everything that happens around us.

So, sometimes what we struggle to achieve does not come to pass. At other times, good things come to us with little or no effort on our part. This should teach us that, ultimately, we are in control of very little and depend heavily on God’s mercy for everything we have. We need to give constant thanks to Allah for the many bounties He provides us. The world around us is not the result of our handiwork, nor did we create our own selves. It is only through His infinite mercy that we exist and are able to do so many things.

It is important to remember that just because we wish something to be and struggle long and hard to make it happen, doesn’t mean that it is a good thing. Also, there are many things which we dislike, yet they are very beneficial to us. As Muslims, we need to expect only good from Allah, so if something we strive hard for does not come to pass, we should be patient and try again until it does. If, in the end, it still does not happen, it might be that it is not good for us and Allah, out of His mercy, has prevented us from achieving it.

We can look at it simply as a doctor, trying to treat an uncooperative child. The child does not understand that the doctor has good intentions and is trying his best to ease the child’s suffering. The child puts up a fight and sometimes hits the doctor, who is only trying to help.

The doctor, however, has sworn to ease the suffering of people, no matter what difficulties he or she may face in dealing with hostile patients. The doctor knows the problem and is working hard to solve it and because of his dedication to his work, must continue to do his best to help.

The question of fate and free will is one of the most intriguing topics in metaphysics and religion.
Man feels absolutely powerless, regarding many of the circumstances in which he/she finds him/herself. One might feel that there are so many givens, which one has to take for granted, and nothing can be done about them. On the other hand, there are many areas where one feels free to act. Look at the marvelous progress of humanity through the centuries. If humans were mere puppets, could we have managed all these wonderful achievements, which have made us so proud of human potential?

Indeed the question of pre-destination and free will has haunted Man for so long; but it has been adequately dealt with in the Holy Qur’an.

From the Qur’anic point of view, Man is not completely a master of his fate; nor is he a puppet subject to the hazards of destiny. It is true that God’s sovereignty is all pervading and nothing falls outside its purview. This means that God knows everything and it is according to His will, things happen here. The universe is completely subject to the overriding power of God, and nothing happens without God willing it to be so.

However, God not only created everything, but He determined its nature and scope. In His infinite wisdom and mercy, He gave Man limited power and great freedoms, including the freedom of choice. It is because of this autonomy, enjoyed by Man, that he/she is held accountable for the individual deeds.
The Holy Qur’an says:

That man can have nothing but what he strives for;


Surah 53 Verse 39

... Verily never will God change the condition of a people until they change it themselves (with their own souls). ...


Surah 13 Verse 11

Say: "With God is the argument that reaches home: if it had been His will, He could indeed have guided you all."


Surah 6 Verse 149

Then shall anyone who has done an atom's weight of good, see it!
And anyone who has done an atom's weight of evil, shall see it.


Surah 99 Verses 7 - 8

In fact the concept of qadar (destiny), used in the Qur'an often, means a measure or the latent possibilities with which God created Man and all things of Nature. For example, God says:
... it is He who created all things, and ordered (qadara) them in due proportions.


Surah 25 Verse 2

In this verse, destiny implies the scope and potential of things. This means their latent capabilities.

There is a hadith, which says that God wrote down the decrees regarding the created world, fifty thousand years, before He created the heavens and the earth. The point to be noted here is that this does not, in any way, mean that God created a universe, finished off and complete, bound to the iron rules of Nature. The idea behind qadar is that the creation of this universe was in accordance with the grand design of the Creator. This means that there is no element of chance in the creation of this universe. Everything is well arranged and well planned.

So this is not a kind of clockwork universe where God simply winds up the clock and then lets it run. The Holy Qur’an clearly says that God is constantly active in Creation:
God! There is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).


Surah 2 Verse 255

This verse indicates that God does not feel tired or sleepy in spite of the fact that He is constantly active.

Muhammad Iqbal, the renowned Islamic poet, has written: ‘Divine knowledge must be conceived as a living creative activity, to which the objects that appear to exist in their own right are organically related. By conceiving God's knowledge as a kind of reflecting mirror, we no doubt save His foreknowledge of future events. But, it is obvious that we do so at the expense of His freedom. The future certainly pre-exists in the organic whole of God's creative life, but it pre-exists as an open possibility, not as a fixed order of events with definite outlines.’

Time as an abstract concept- encompassing the past, present and future- is very much relative. It is, however, a great ‘present’ for the All-Seeing God. The whole continuum of time lies before Him in the shape of now. Knowledge is an act of creative activity and not the mere reflection of it. When He decrees a thing it happens and He sees it before it happens. God in Islam is therefore a free Creator with foreknowledge.

God's knowledge, however, is not like our knowledge. God's knowledge covers everything created, its past and its future.
... With God is the Decision, in the past and in the Future...


Surah 30 Verse 4

But God is the creator and we are the created. Our knowledge is limited in ways that God's knowledge is not. It is our very lack of knowledge which gives us free will. We cannot know our future and to a large extent we cannot control it. Our decisions are based on our understanding of the way the world works. Are these decisions free from God's command? Not really, but for all practical purposes we inevitably see them as free choices, we cannot do otherwise – that is our nature. We are held accountable only for things we understand. Our deeds are judged by their intentions.

So just as someone who punches his fist into a brick wall cannot claim injustice when it hurts, nor can we claim any injustice if we disobey God's moral laws, when we know them, and get punished. We "know" that the wall exists and that it is hard and that is the reality we deal with. The ultimate reality is however, that God could make that wall disappear just before your fist reached it.

The concept of qadar, therefore, indicates that we must seek harmony with God’s rules of human nature and nature at large, and consciously submit to His will. Destiny as conceived by Islam, therefore, does not take away our freedom of choice and action. It is our willful choice of those actions from our inherent possibilities that are in harmony with God’s will that earns us our reward from God. Thus, qadar can be a source of inspiration and encouragement for us, and it really opens up vast fields of human activity. It need not make us utterly powerless or helpless; on the contrary it can be a source of inspiration and encouragement.

Indeed, when God has set certain rules in his decree as to how things evolve, even these things can be changed through prayers. The prophet stressed that only sincere prayers can change the way events unfold, and that true worship and sincere submission to God can raise the believer above the normal ways of nature: Prayers can and do result in "personal miracles" - events or experiences which we consider almost impossible and certainly highly improbable.

From an Islamic point of view, Man is free for all practical purposes. He/she has no excuse for making the wrong choice and then blaming qadar or fate, any more than a man punching his fist into a wall can blame the laws of nature. He knew the consequences of his actions for all practical purposes and he shouldn't expect a miracle!

The foregoing means, that we should not worry about what God has written for us, since we can never know it; but our duty, here and now, is to strive for the best in this world and the next. Then, good results will follow, insha’Allah.

And Allah knows best.

[leshinor]

Phew! That was a long read! Well, I'll have to think about that more.
What do other people think though? Is it just me and alsharid who are willing to discuss about it?

[shadowmaks]

Well I found it interesting.
I still ponder over the whole "at his will thing".

There are people with different or no faith, why does he allow that?
There are accidents that happen and kill many people, why does allow that?
There are people that do nothing but good, but die or get killed while there are truely evil people with bad intensions that live on, why is that?

I know these are common questions, but what god, ruler, ect, allows people that fully believe him go through bad things? Enlighten me, please.

[alsharid]

Yeah ok, look at it like this. School. In school, you get quizzes, exams, tests, etc. And every student hopes to pass the term and avoid going to summer school of any kind. Let's say the no-school-summer is Paradise and the other is Hellfire. To determine who gets to have what kind of summer, the teacher has to quiz his students. For example, the final exam is to believe in Allah AlMighty. and let's say the test is to accept the death of say your grandfather, and not to go all emo about it. Survive that and have faith= grants you a passing grade, you go to no-school-summer. That's why certain things happen. Each soul needs to take several quizzes in life.

Now about your third question, dying is not necessarily a bad thing. Those who pass with flying colors get to wait (for Judgement Day) in the hereafter's equivilant of Paradise(which is great, but not as much as the afterlife's). Some might even have the honor to meet their Creator early.

About the evil people. The angels have begged their Lord to send them to punish these people, but Allah, in his infinite wisdom and kindness, refused to do so. He told them, do you know whether or not their descendants will submit themselves to me(in other words believe in me). The angels of course don't know because they can't tell the future unless Allah Almighty told them which he didn't.

If you're not satisfied, just tell me. I'll seek professional help if you do so.

[thaty]

Well I belive in both... God may have criated the atoms and that stuff and they make progress by themselves and here we are... Or the big bang was made by Him and than He left us make evolution.... There are a lot of theories but I really believe in God... For me is really hard to thing that there's nothing greater in the world.... Or maybe I'm just looking for somenthing to hang on to..... But I like to think that He exists....

[wi_sam]

Just to set things straight for you people, Allah means God in Arabic. But, it does not mean Jesus.

As for Stray_Wolf's BS, I believe your ignorance blinded your common sense, And I think you're the extremist, soldier.
Also, I don't think you even know what you're fighting for, nor who you are fighting with.

So, before you make such extreme statments, you should well know what you're blabbering about.

[alsharid]

Just to set things straight for you people, Allah means God in Arabic. But, it does not mean Jesus.

As for Stray_Wolf's BS, I believe your ignorance blinded your common sense, And I think you're the extremist, soldier.
Also, I don't think you even know what you're fighting for, nor who you are fighting with.

So, before you make such extreme statments, you should well know what you're blabbering about.

INDEED!(can anyone guess where this is from?) Also to inform people who do not know. To us, Jesus(we call him Iessa) is a messenger/prophet just like Prophet Muhammad.

Stray_Wolf, I suggest you take a serious course in the Arabic language before using words such as "Jihad".

[Zaraki]

INDEED!(can anyone guess where this is from?) Also to inform people who do not know. To us, Jesus(we call him Iessa) is a messenger/prophet just like Prophet Muhammad.

Stray_Wolf, I suggest you take a serious course in the Arabic language before using words such as "Jihad".

might be a dumb question but even though you said the Arabics believe Jesus to be a prophet do you believe he is still the Son of God or just a prophet?

[alsharid]

might be a dumb question but even though you said the Arabics believe Jesus to be a prophet do you believe he is still the Son of God or just a prophet?

Thank you for taking the time to ask. No such question is dumb to me.

No, us Muslims believe that he has no father. Yet to us, he's the most important Prophet second only to Prophet Muhammad.

[wi_sam]

Thank you for taking the time to ask. No such question is dumb to me.

No, us Muslims believe that he has no father. Yet to us, he's the most important Prophet second only to Prophet Muhammad.

Muslims belive that Jesus's birth was one of the many miracles yet to accure. And that's the only major difference between these two religions.

[Zaraki]

Thank you for taking the time to ask. No such question is dumb to me.

No, us Muslims believe that he has no father. Yet to us, he's the most important Prophet second only to Prophet Muhammad.

your welcome, reason i ask was because i heard some do and some don't.

[leshinor]

Well, the way I see it, there aren't too many differences in the main theories of Christianity and Islam. Of course there may be many differences in secondary things that require for them to be 2 totally different religions but both of them believe in the concept of one and only God, a powerful but merciful existence that represents Good and loves us.
The only difference that I consider very important is the way each religion considers God to act. It seems to me that in Islam, the world functions according to Allah's will while in Christianity, God has created us but has let us do whatever we like with small to almost no interference. Do you guys agree with that???

PS. Sky, explosions actually create something; they create havoc. Consider what was the universe before and what it was after the Big Bang, according to science. Before it was just condensed matter but after it, all the particles that were stable and non-moving started to move like crazy. It truly became a chaotic environment.

[Zaraki]

Well, the way I see it, there aren't too many differences in the main theories of Christianity and Islam. Of course there may be many differences in secondary things that require for them to be 2 totally different religions but both of them believe in the concept of one and only God, a powerful but merciful existence that represents Good and loves us.
The only difference that I consider very important is the way each religion considers God to act. It seems to me that in Islam, the world functions according to Allah's will while in Christianity, God has created us but has let us do whatever we like with small to almost no interference. Do you guys agree with that???

PS. Sky, explosions actually create something; they create havoc. Consider what was the universe before and what it was after the Big Bang, according to science. Before it was just condensed matter but after it, all the particles that were stable and non-moving started to move like crazy. It truly became a chaotic environment.

yeah i do agree, pastor at a church i go to was asked by a lot of teenagers about heaven and hell, and who goes there. the pastor had a little hard time trying to answer the question, but i think he did a pretty good job at answering it. yes God does gives us a free will, and the reason why is he didn't want all of us to be machines and were forced into worshiping Him. even though he truly does wants us to worship and love Him, he gave us the choice to love and worship Him. we can either say we don't need him and end up truly dying or decide to give our lives back to Him and let Him provide for us and eventually see Him in Heaven and live forever.

one of the questions was if the world was a perfect place and there was supposed to be no evil why did God create Hell? answer he gave us was before creating humans he created the angels. which eventually the Arch Angel Lucifer who at the time was basically the top and powerful angel decided he wanted more and be wanted to be like God. since at the time he was supposed to be the most beautiful and talented of all of the angels, he turned 1/3 of the angels against God. that's when God decided to create Hell and that's what Hell was originally meant for Lucifer and his followers and not for those created in God's own image, meaning us humans. of course you should know what happens next, God makes man and Satan tempted humans to sin which is how sin is basically a death penalty.

what i found interesting was even those who still believed in God, before Christ gave up His life for our sins still went to Hell or Hades, but those who believed were in a waiting room for them to rest in. while those who didn't were on the judgment side of Hell or Hades being tortured. when Christ died on the cross he went into Hell, or Hades to get the keys of life and death, and took those who were on the comfort side back into Heaven. now alsharid will have to explain the other half about the Islamic faith since i know just about jack squat about Islam. xD

[shadowmaks]

that's when God decided to create Hell and that's what Hell was originally meant for Lucifer and his followers and not for those created in God's own image, meaning us humans.


So basiclly, Lucifer is Satan?

[Zaraki]

So basiclly, Lucifer is Satan?

yeah Lucifer and Satan are the same, just like God he has many names.

[amerikajin]

As a Christian, I firmly believe in Creationism. While evolution exists, it only exists on a minor scale (we wouldn't have so many different breeds of dogs or cats or any other animal if microevolution did not exist). I have to say that as a biology major and chemistry minor, I also have to subscribe to creationism (not specifically the Christian God, but definitely intelligent design). The more I learn about the intricacies of the world around us, as well as us ourselves, the harder I find it to believe that we are the result of accidental mutations. On top of that, much evidence that has been cited for macroevolution has actually been disproven or nullified.

I leave you with this little tidbit: Charles Darwin, in his On the Origin of the Species, said that if there were a system that could not be proven to have slowly evolved over-time (if it showed specified-complexity), his entire theory would fall to pieces. The bacteria flagellum is one example (of several) of specified-complexity as if it had slowly evolved, gathering piece by piece, it would have been unfit for reproduction and therefore at a complete disadvantage - basically, evolution would wipe it out. But some bacterium have flagellum. So the question posed is: HOW? Evolutionism would actually say it shouldn't. Creationism, or intelligent design, gives us an answer - they were made that way.

[leshinor]

As a Christian, I firmly believe in Creationism. While evolution exists, it only exists on a minor scale (we wouldn't have so many different breeds of dogs or cats or any other animal if microevolution did not exist). I have to say that as a biology major and chemistry minor, I also have to subscribe to creationism (not specifically the Christian God, but definitely intelligent design). The more I learn about the intricacies of the world around us, as well as us ourselves, the harder I find it to believe that we are the result of accidental mutations. On top of that, much evidence that has been cited for macroevolution has actually been disproven or nullified.

I leave you with this little tidbit: Charles Darwin, in his On the Origin of the Species, said that if there were a system that could not be proven to have slowly evolved over-time (if it showed specified-complexity), his entire theory would fall to pieces. The bacteria flagellum is one example (of several) of specified-complexity as if it had slowly evolved, gathering piece by piece, it would have been unfit for reproduction and therefore at a complete disadvantage - basically, evolution would wipe it out. But some bacterium have flagellum. So the question posed is: HOW? Evolutionism would actually say it shouldn't. Creationism, or intelligent design, gives us an answer - they were made that way.

Umm... I didn't quite catch that... Could you explain that last part that I put in bold? Did those bacteria not evolve or do we believe that they didn't evolve because if they had done so they wouldn't have had time to reproduce?
:dizzy::dizzy::dizzy:



what i found interesting was even those who still believed in God, before Christ gave up His life for our sins still went to Hell or Hades, but those who believed were in a waiting room for them to rest in. while those who didn't were on the judgment side of Hell or Hades being tortured. when Christ died on the cross he went into Hell, or Hades to get the keys of life and death, and took those who were on the comfort side back into Heaven. now alsharid will have to explain the other half about the Islamic faith since i know just about jack squat about Islam. xD

Well, in Dante's Inferno, he says that all people who died before Jesus were sent on the first level of hell (the least painful... lol). When Jesus 'died' he won over death and went through hell, picked up the believers, opened the gates to heaven and took them there. I cannot accept this as the truth because I do not believe that such a merciful God would let his believers go to hell when they didn't do anything bad... Dante also says that all people who did not believe in the Christian God remained in hell even if they were excellent people... Of course they were in the first level of hell too that isn't that bad but I still cannot accept this...

[amerikajin]

Umm... I didn't quite catch that... Could you explain that last part that I put in bold? Did those bacteria not evolve or do we believe that they didn't evolve because if they had done so they wouldn't have had time to reproduce?
:dizzy::dizzy::dizzy:

Basically what it means is that the theory of evolution does not explain the existance of bacterium flagellum. The flagella has too many intricate parts to it that it could not have come about all at once - parts of the flagella would have to, over time, come into existance due to chance or mutations. But, each part of the flagella, on its own, does not help in the bacteria's fitness (does not help it survive better than its peers) and might actually be detrimental to it. According to the theory of survival of the fittest, which is the basic idea behind evolution, these bacteria with parts of the flagella would not be more likely to reproduce to create more bacteria with the same mutations (flagella parts) which would, over time and due to more mutations, create the entire flagella. Basically, it makes more sense to believe that they were created that way because according to the basic tenets of evolution they were originally unfit for survival and the mutations that would have led to flagellum would not have continued in the next generations. It's not that they didn't have time to reproduce, but that they were unfit to reproduce well. Evolution, the way it is percieved, would have selected AGAINST these bacteria with pre-flagella pieces.

Hope this explains it a bit better...

Well, in Dante's Inferno, he says that all people who died before Jesus were sent on the first level of hell (the least painful... lol). When Jesus 'died' he won over death and went through hell, picked up the believers, opened the gates to heaven and took them there. I cannot accept this as the truth because I do not believe that such a merciful God would let his believers go to hell when they didn't do anything bad... Dante also says that all people who did not believe in the Christian God remained in hell even if they were excellent people... Of course they were in the first level of hell too that isn't that bad but I still cannot accept this...

Actually, you're wrong there. Everyone has done something to deserve being damned to hell as no one is pefect. What we might consider the smallest of sins is still too much of a sin for us to be allowed entry to heaven and into the courts of the perfectly good God. After humanity's fall from grace in the garden of eden, mankind was basically doomed. That is why God first created the law (found in the old testament). It was followed by the Israelites so they could live the lives God had wanted of them, but the flesh is strong and people are weak to temptation and sin, breaking those laws. The laws were not meant to save people but to show people they could not be saved. Jesus was later sent to act as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins and fulfillment of the pact (covenant - Genesis 15) God made with Abraham. It's a pretty gruesome sounding chapter, but the point of it is that God makes a promise with Abraham (still Abram at this point) and the way the promise was made (walking through the animals' blood) was a symbol that if he broke it, he would offer his own life as sacrifice/repayment. Christ's death on the cross was the creation of a new covenant with His people. The old covenant had the Law and if you didn't follow the Law, you were damned because you were imperfect and unworthy of heaven (which is why people who followed God could still be sent to hell). To make retributions when a person broke the law, they'd have to sacrifice certain animals, but those only worked for that one time. The new covenant has Jesus and even if you mess up, God can forgive you because the ultimate price has already been paid. The new covenant worked retroactively, which is why Jesus could rescue those trapped in Hell. As far as the nonbelievers remaining in Hell, this is because they had sinned and were imperfect before God's eyes. The New Testament, however, states that those who never heard the true gospel are judged not on their acceptance of Christ, but on how they lived their lives according to the Law.

[shadowmaks]

Basically what it means is that the theory of evolution does not explain the existance of bacterium flagellum. The flagella has too many intricate parts to it that it could not have come about all at once - parts of the flagella would have to, over time, come into existance due to chance or mutations. But, each part of the flagella, on its own, does not help in the bacteria's fitness (does not help it survive better than its peers) and might actually be detrimental to it. According to the theory of survival of the fittest, which is the basic idea behind evolution, these bacteria with parts of the flagella would not be more likely to reproduce to create more bacteria with the same mutations (flagella parts) which would, over time and due to more mutations, create the entire flagella. Basically, it makes more sense to believe that they were created that way because according to the basic tenets of evolution they were originally unfit for survival and the mutations that would have led to flagellum would not have continued in the next generations. It's not that they didn't have time to reproduce, but that they were unfit to reproduce well. Evolution, the way it is percieved, would have selected AGAINST these bacteria with pre-flagella pieces.


Now I remember why it sounded so familiar.
I saw a court case about this same thing (actually led me to make this thread), one of the things the creationism side used was the flagella and said the same things you just said. The side for evolution countered that by showing an other bacteria (can't remember the name) which had a body made of only 30%, or 60%, of the parts that made the flagella. It didn't function the same way, but in a complete different way. For example, the flagella has a tail-like thing that propells it, while the second one also has the same tail, but except of propelling, it acted as a stinger. They also made an easier example following the same concept. "A mouse trap does it's job only when all parts are there. If you remove everything and leave only the pin (the thing that comes down and kills the rat) and the wooden part, it doesn't do the same job, but it can be used as a clip. Not sightly, but it works." (not exactly word by word)

I'm trying to find a vid of the court case, but no luck. All I know is that it took place in 2005.

[wi_sam]

Well, the way I see it, there aren't too many differences in the main theories of Christianity and Islam. Of course there may be many differences in secondary things that require for them to be 2 totally different religions but both of them believe in the concept of one and only God, a powerful but merciful existence that represents Good and loves us.
The only difference that I consider very important is the way each religion considers God to act. It seems to me that in Islam, the world functions according to Allah's will while in Christianity, God has created us but has let us do whatever we like with small to almost no interference. Do you guys agree with that???

Not really, if what you think was true, then why would there be the sinful and the bad, wouldn't it be better if god created the perfect flawless world?

So, God Creat his Creations, draw their fate, and gave them all the possablities they can have. THEY would have to choose what they want.



Also I'd like to state that although I believe in creationism, Evolution is an absolute truth to me. And denying it would be as absurd as denying the very exsitance of God.

[amerikajin]

Now I remember why it sounded so familiar.
I saw a court case about this same thing (actually led me to make this thread), one of the things the creationism side used was the flagella and said the same things you just said. The side for evolution countered that by showing an other bacteria (can't remember the name) which had a body made of only 30%, or 60%, of the parts that made the flagella. It didn't function the same way, but in a complete different way. For example, the flagella has a tail-like thing that propells it, while the second one also has the same tail, but except of propelling, it acted as a stinger. They also made an easier example following the same concept. "A mouse trap does it's job only when all parts are there. If you remove everything and leave only the pin (the thing that comes down and kills the rat) and the wooden part, it doesn't do the same job, but it can be used as a clip. Not sightly, but it works." (not exactly word by word)

I'm trying to find a vid of the court case, but no luck. All I know is that it took place in 2005.

The problem with that is it gives only one example. What happens if you have only the spring of the mousetrap? It doesn't do you much good. The tail might act as a rotor in some and a stinger in others (this would also involve extra steps of evolution to lose the nematocytes). Plus, as stated before, this is only one example. DNA itself is another. The chances of two nucleic acids hooking up the exact way for the first DNA to even begin forming is phenomenal. Not to mention it would most likely break apart easily as well. Even taking into account the billions of years the earth has been around and the time when life first showed, it would take such an exhorbitant amount of luck to get DNA that it's ludicrous. Continuing that discussion, the Miller-Urey experiment testing with what was believed to be the components of the earth's first atmosphere is also dropped as he had the incorrect components. Using what was later deemed to be the correct components, organic compounds were made, yes, but they were compounds such as formaldehyde, which would destroy amino and nucleic acids. Even taking into account the Miller-Urey experiment, this is only the creation of some organic compounds and amino acids. Scientists are still stuck on trying to figure out how the heck DNA came about.

[leshinor]

Not really, if what you think was true, then why would there be the sinful and the bad, wouldn't it be better if god created the perfect flawless world?

So, God Creat his Creations, draw their fate, and gave them all the possablities they can have. THEY would have to choose what they want.



Also I'd like to state that although I believe in creationism, Evolution is an absolute truth to me. And denying it would be as absurd as denying the very exsitance of God.

Well, what I mean is that according to Islam, Allah has given us free will to choose what we want to do but in the end He decides what will be done. According to Christianity, God interferes slightly. I am not saying that one is better than the other. Just pointing out that difference. Or at least what looks to me like a difference. I might be wrong since most of my knowledge of Islam comes from Al's posts...


The problem with that is it gives only one example. What happens if you have only the spring of the mousetrap? It doesn't do you much good. The tail might act as a rotor in some and a stinger in others (this would also involve extra steps of evolution to lose the nematocytes). Plus, as stated before, this is only one example. DNA itself is another. The chances of two amino acids hooking up the exact way for the first DNA to even begin forming is phenomenal. Not to mention it would most likely break apart easily as well. Even taking into account the billions of years the earth has been around and the time when life first showed, it would take such an exhorbitant amount of luck to get DNA that it's ludicrous. Continuing that discussion, the Miller-Urey experiment testing with what was believed to be the components of the earth's first atmosphere is also dropped as he had the incorrect components. Using what was later deemed to be the correct components, organic compounds were made, yes, but they were compounds such as formaldehyde, which would destroy amino acids. Even taking into account the Miller-Urey experiment, this is only the creation of some organic compounds and amino acids. Scientists are still stuck on trying to figure out how the heck DNA came about.

What I wanted to point out here is that we should consider the universe as a whole and not just Earth. The possibility that life started to appear even after billions of years is low but if we think of the universe, or at least the planets that we are sure that have life on them, we will see that the probability that life would appear in one of all those planets rises exponentially. If life hadn't appeared on Earth, for example, and had done so on Mars, then the intelligent beings that would eventually come to existence would wonder about the exact same thing. Also, even if there is a tiny possibility of something happening then it is enough for it to happen. For example, if I threw a coin 10 times then the probability of getting tails all 10 times is 1/1024 if I'm not mistaken. This mean that if I do that trial 1024 times then it is highly probable that i would get that result 1 time. This doesn't mean though that I might not get it at my very first attempt.



Actually, you're wrong there. Everyone has done something to deserve being damned to hell as no one is pefect. What we might consider the smallest of sins is still too much of a sin for us to be allowed entry to heaven and into the courts of the perfectly good God. After humanity's fall from grace in the garden of eden, mankind was basically doomed. That is why God first created the law (found in the old testament). It was followed by the Israelites so they could live the lives God had wanted of them, but the flesh is strong and people are weak to temptation and sin, breaking those laws. The laws were not meant to save people but to show people they could not be saved. Jesus was later sent to act as the ultimate sacrifice for our sins and fulfillment of the pact (covenant - Genesis 15) God made with Abraham. It's a pretty gruesome sounding chapter, but the point of it is that God makes a promise with Abraham (still Abram at this point) and the way the promise was made (walking through the animals' blood) was a symbol that if he broke it, he would offer his own life as sacrifice/repayment. Christ's death on the cross was the creation of a new covenant with His people. The old covenant had the Law and if you didn't follow the Law, you were damned because you were imperfect and unworthy of heaven (which is why people who followed God could still be sent to hell). To make retributions when a person broke the law, they'd have to sacrifice certain animals, but those only worked for that one time. The new covenant has Jesus and even if you mess up, God can forgive you because the ultimate price has already been paid. The new covenant worked retroactively, which is why Jesus could rescue those trapped in Hell. As far as the nonbelievers remaining in Hell, this is because they had sinned and were imperfect before God's eyes. The New Testament, however, states that those who never heard the true gospel are judged not on their acceptance of Christ, but on how they lived their lives according to the Law.

Exactly, the New Testament states that those people would be judged according to their life in general, however, Dante put all people, except from some very few like Moses, in hell with their only sin being that they did not believe in God even if they hadn't the chance to hear about Him. I am not saying this is Christianity's point of view, I'm just saying that I disagree with this idea, which is Dante's.


I hope I explained my points well, but I am seriously doubting that since I'm so sleepy right now... If you disagree with me or did not understand something I said please say so!
:serious::cute::serious:

[Zaraki]

Umm... I didn't quite catch that... Could you explain that last part that I put in bold? Did those bacteria not evolve or do we believe that they didn't evolve because if they had done so they wouldn't have had time to reproduce?
:dizzy::dizzy::dizzy:




Well, in Dante's Inferno, he says that all people who died before Jesus were sent on the first level of hell (the least painful... lol). When Jesus 'died' he won over death and went through hell, picked up the believers, opened the gates to heaven and took them there. I cannot accept this as the truth because I do not believe that such a merciful God would let his believers go to hell when they didn't do anything bad... Dante also says that all people who did not believe in the Christian God remained in hell even if they were excellent people... Of course they were in the first level of hell too that isn't that bad but I still cannot accept this...

like i said before even those who did still went to Hell or Hades, but ended up in a waiting room to where they could rest (not the first level), while those who didn't were sent into the the torture half. like the story of the poor man and the rich man. the rich man on earth cared more for himself then those less fortunate than him, and wouldn't help the poor man who was begging him for food. when eventually both died the poor man ended up in the comfort side of hell while the rich man didn't get so lucky. the rich man saw the poor man from the other side and asked him for water. then what happened next was Abraham basically told the rich man the golden rule do unto others as what you want them to do do you (i forget what he actually said to him).

[Waste]

Well tbh you are all wrong. Our ancestors came here from another planet and just kept it all a secret. Obviously.

[wi_sam]

What planet would that be?

[Waste]

Well my ancestors were from venus. =] Dont know about yours.

[Bobadoe]

Well my ancestors were from venus. =] Dont know about yours.

WARNING IMMATURE JOKE INCOMING!!!


Better than Uranus...OH!


God I hate myself sometimes....

[wi_sam]

Mine descend from Viginus, I think...

[dragonrock]

Creationism is it! I mean come on scientists recently proved evolution wrong when you added up all the years they said it took to make all the parts we would be way in the future from when humans have recordings.

[leshinor]

like i said before even those who did still went to Hell or Hades, but ended up in a waiting room to where they could rest (not the first level), while those who didn't were sent into the the torture half. like the story of the poor man and the rich man. the rich man on earth cared more for himself then those less fortunate than him, and wouldn't help the poor man who was begging him for food. when eventually both died the poor man ended up in the comfort side of hell while the rich man didn't get so lucky. the rich man saw the poor man from the other side and asked him for water. then what happened next was Abraham basically told the rich man the golden rule do unto others as what you want them to do do you (i forget what he actually said to him).

To make this clear, I am NOT talking about the Christian point of view but of Dante's point of view. He was an Italian poet who lived during Middle Age and wrote the Divine Comedy which compromizes of three books: Inferno, Purgatorio and Paradiso. In the first one he says that all people born before Christ and that didn't believe in the Real God went to hell and remained there. Again, this is not Christianity's view but Dante's.

[Waste]

Creationism is it! I mean come on scientists recently proved evolution wrong when you added up all the years they said it took to make all the parts we would be way in the future from when humans have recordings.

So evolution is wrong. Still way more plausible than a big guy in the sky =]

[Dolly]

1) Evolutionism doesn't blankly mean we came from monkeys.
2) You can be an evolutionist while being Christian.

[amerikajin]

Okay, this one's a doozy, so let's get started...

What I wanted to point out here is that we should consider the universe as a whole and not just Earth. The possibility that life started to appear even after billions of years is low but if we think of the universe, or at least the planets that we are sure that have life on them, we will see that the probability that life would appear in one of all those planets rises exponentially. If life hadn't appeared on Earth, for example, and had done so on Mars, then the intelligent beings that would eventually come to existence would wonder about the exact same thing. Also, even if there is a tiny possibility of something happening then it is enough for it to happen. For example, if I threw a coin 10 times then the probability of getting tails all 10 times is 1/1024 if I'm not mistaken. This mean that if I do that trial 1024 times then it is highly probable that i would get that result 1 time. This doesn't mean though that I might not get it at my very first attempt.

The only planet that intelligent life can exist on in our solar system, as well as in nearby solar systems, is earth. Mars once had water, which is a necessity for life, yes, but Mars is too far from the sun for proper life to exist (as is Pluto). It's too cold. Mercury is much too close to the sun. The other planets are gaseous. Scientists have been searching the entire universe for any other planet with the proper set-up to support intelligent life and have yet to find one. The exact specifications that are needed for even unintelligent life such as plants or animals are so specific that even they could not exist on any planet other than earth. Our distance from the sun, our atmosphere, the moon, the amount of water on the planet, even our solar system's position in the milky way galaxy and the galaxy's position in the universe help support life. So, yes, I am thinking of the universe as a whole.

And as far as chances, I'm not talking about 1/1024 chance...try flipping that quarter your whole life, then have one of your children flip it through their whole life, then have one of their children flip it through their whole life and let each time be heads and that might be close to the most basic structures appearing (proteins, lipids, etc...for DNA, add a few more generations).

Exactly, the New Testament states that those people would be judged according to their life in general, however, Dante put all people, except from some very few like Moses, in hell with their only sin being that they did not believe in God even if they hadn't the chance to hear about Him. I am not saying this is Christianity's point of view, I'm just saying that I disagree with this idea, which is Dante's.

First of all, the New Testament happened AFTER Christ was crucified, rose from the dead, and ascended to heaven, which means that BEFORE Christ, people were judged solely on their abidance of the law (full abidance is in no way possible because we are all greedy, disgusting sinners). When I wrote what you commented the above quote on, I was discussing this comment you made earlier:

Well, in Dante's Inferno, he says that all people who died before Jesus were sent on the first level of hell (the least painful... lol). When Jesus 'died' he won over death and went through hell, picked up the believers, opened the gates to heaven and took them there. I cannot accept this as the truth because I do not believe that such a merciful God would let his believers go to hell when they didn't do anything bad... Dante also says that all people who did not believe in the Christian God remained in hell even if they were excellent people... Of course they were in the first level of hell too that isn't that bad but I still cannot accept this...

In this part, people are not judged on whether they believe in God, but whether they follow His Laws. NO ONE fully followed God's Laws, so, yes, they were sent to hell. When Jesus died, the new covenant (which is where all you have to do is believe) came into play, which allowed Jesus to rescue the captives in Hell. Anyway, like you said, this is Dante you were discussing, not Christian Theology. Don't base whether you believe in God and His Son, Jesus, on one philosopher's writings. Read the Bible, read the commentaries on the Bible, go to church, talk to knowledged believers, and talk to God, Himself (pray). I also cannot fully state how close Dante's Divine Comedy is to Christian Theology as I have not read any of those books, I can only use my knowledge of Christian Theology to respond to your arguments.

1) Evolutionism doesn't blankly mean we came from monkeys.
2) You can be an evolutionist while being Christian.

Dolly, thank you. For everyone out there, I will reiterate something I said in my first post. I am a Christian and I believe in evolution. The evolution I believe in, however, is the proven MICROEVOLUTION, not the THEORY of macroevolution.

[leshinor]

The only planet that intelligent life can exist on in our solar system, as well as in nearby solar systems, is earth. Mars once had water, which is a necessity for life, yes, but Mars is too far from the sun for proper life to exist (as is Pluto). It's too cold. Mercury is much too close to the sun. The other planets are gaseous. Scientists have been searching the entire universe for any other planet with the proper set-up to support intelligent life and have yet to find one. The exact specifications that are needed for even unintelligent life such as plants or animals are so specific that even they could not exist on any planet other than earth. Our distance from the sun, our atmosphere, the moon, the amount of water on the planet, even our solar system's position in the milky way galaxy and the galaxy's position in the universe help support life. So, yes, I am thinking of the universe as a whole.

Yeah, I know that our planet is the only one that can support life. But, the universe is huge, some even say it is endless, so even a tiny possibility might be probable to happen in this huge space. I am not saying I believe all this happened out of luck, just saying that it is not as outrageous as some might believe.

And as far as chances, I'm not talking about 1/1024 chance...try flipping that quarter your whole life, then have one of your children flip it through their whole life, then have one of their children flip it through their whole life and let each time be heads and that might be close to the most basic structures appearing (proteins, lipids, etc...for DNA, add a few more generations).

Yeah, I know the chance is not 1/1024 but something much much smaller, so small that we might not even be able to perceive it, I just wanted to give an example.


First of all, the New Testament happened AFTER Christ was crucified, rose from the dead, and ascended to heaven, which means that BEFORE Christ, people were judged solely on their abidance of the law (full abidance is in no way possible because we are all greedy, disgusting sinners). When I wrote what you commented the above quote on, I was discussing this comment you made earlier:



In this part, people are not judged on whether they believe in God, but whether they follow His Laws. NO ONE fully followed God's Laws, so, yes, they were sent to hell. When Jesus died, the new covenant (which is where all you have to do is believe) came into play, which allowed Jesus to rescue the captives in Hell. Anyway, like you said, this is Dante you were discussing, not Christian Theology. Don't base whether you believe in God and His Son, Jesus, on one philosopher's writings. Read the Bible, read the commentaries on the Bible, go to church, talk to knowledged believers, and talk to God, Himself (pray). I also cannot fully state how close Dante's Divine Comedy is to Christian Theology as I have not read any of those books, I can only use my knowledge of Christian Theology to respond to your arguments.

I do not base my religious opinion on Dante's writings, I just wanted to bring up his opinions and discuss them!
:cute::cute::cute:

[SkY93]

They started form a small single cell organism and slowly evolved over roughly billions of years to get where we are today.If you want to learn how it started go google it.

B. Earth is a term we use to name our planet, your question is like asking "Who created gravity?" No one did, we gave it a name to try to understand it.

C. His mom and dad did.

I follow evolutionism, more believable proof and ideas.

Science could be called my major... and i find that it was never explained how that single cell got here....and all the proof and facts all have their limits that can be pushed but still fall short... Science is the answer of why.... God is the answer to all...

[analogZero]

Science could be called my major... and i find that it was never explained how that single cell got here....and all the proof and facts all have their limits that can be pushed but still fall short... Science is the answer of why.... God is the answer to all...

Limit's an interesting point to bring up. The mathematical term of limits might interest you then. It's sort of bridges the idea of how something can logically come from nothing.

[Stray_Pube]

The bacteria flagellum is one example (of several) of specified-complexity as if it had slowly evolved, gathering piece by piece, it would have been unfit for reproduction and therefore at a complete disadvantage - basically, evolution would wipe it out. But some bacterium have flagellum. So the question posed is: HOW? Evolutionism would actually say it shouldn't. Creationism, or intelligent design, gives us an answer - they were made that way.

Holy shit, THANK YOU for saying something about the flagellum. I hope you know that there is another bacteria that has a flagellum-like organelle, it has the SAME EXACT poteins as in a working flagelllum, but it has several parts missing, yet it has a function, to inject its RNA into another cell. It has evolved this way because it needed a way to survive, so it produced this form of the flagellum.

And dont you DARE say intelligent design, it is not that, its Creationism. A religious belief, not science.

I have a program I want you all to watch. Its called Judgement Day: Intelligent Design on Trial. Look for it at pbs.org.

[mellowguy]

I really don't want to get into this again- oh well. Lets say the probability of a strand of dna evolving on a planet is 1/100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Large number, yes? Now, how many planets are there in the universe? Well, some modern studies say that there are 300,000,000,000 stars in our galaxy. Recent german computer simulations put the number of galaxies as high as 500,000,000,000, as far as we know. Average number of planets around a star? No idea. Lets say 2, for now. That multiplies out to 3,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Divided by the above... gives us three millionths of a percent that life will evolve on any of those planets. So, as a rough, unproven, highest likely number of planets with dna on it, we get- 90,000,000,000,000,000, 90 quadrillion planets that would have life on them. Again, this is fuzzy, unproven, weird, unscientific equations, but it proves my point. Even with the chance being so small, the sheer number of places it could happen will even it out.

[leshinor]

I really don't want to get into this again- oh well. Lets say the probability of a strand of dna evolving on a planet is 1/100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Large number, yes? Now, how many planets are there in the universe? Well, some modern studies say that there are 300,000,000,000 stars in our galaxy. Recent german computer simulations put the number of galaxies as high as 500,000,000,000, as far as we know. Average number of planets around a star? No idea. Lets say 2, for now. That multiplies out to 3,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Divided by the above... gives us three millionths of a percent that life will evolve on any of those planets. So, as a rough, unproven, highest likely number of planets with dna on it, we get- 90,000,000,000,000,000, 90 quadrillion planets that would have life on them. Again, this is fuzzy, unproven, weird, unscientific equations, but it proves my point. Even with the chance being so small, the sheer number of places it could happen will even it out.

Nice! That was what I was trying to say! Thanks Mellowguy!

[amerikajin]

Holy shit, THANK YOU for saying something about the flagellum. I hope you know that there is another bacteria that has a flagellum-like organelle, it has the SAME EXACT poteins as in a working flagelllum, but it has several parts missing, yet it has a function, to inject its RNA into another cell. It has evolved this way because it needed a way to survive, so it produced this form of the flagellum.

And dont you DARE say intelligent design, it is not that, its Creationism. A religious belief, not science.

I have a program I want you all to watch. Its called Judgement Day: Intelligent Design on Trial. Look for it at pbs.org.

If you had read the rest of my comments, you would know the flagellum is not the only argument for specified-complexity, each and every cell is also an argument as they all contain DNA. Don't just pick and choose what you debate against as you have yet to prove the majority of my argument wrong and have yet to prove this one incorrect either. Technically this isn't even a question science can answer, as science has to deal with the study of empirical evidence and we cannot actually empirically study this. Evolution can never be more than a theory. There is no way to test whether the flagella came from the other cell or if they were both created.

And, yes, I firmly believe in Creation, but there are others out there who are not 'religious' and would rather not call it such, so I use the term intelligent design as an overarching one. After all, what else is creation other than a design planned and implemented by an intelligent being?

I really don't want to get into this again- oh well. Lets say the probability of a strand of dna evolving on a planet is 1/100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Large number, yes? Now, how many planets are there in the universe? Well, some modern studies say that there are 300,000,000,000 stars in our galaxy. Recent german computer simulations put the number of galaxies as high as 500,000,000,000, as far as we know. Average number of planets around a star? No idea. Lets say 2, for now. That multiplies out to 3,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Divided by the above... gives us three millionths of a percent that life will evolve on any of those planets. So, as a rough, unproven, highest likely number of planets with dna on it, we get- 90,000,000,000,000,000, 90 quadrillion planets that would have life on them. Again, this is fuzzy, unproven, weird, unscientific equations, but it proves my point. Even with the chance being so small, the sheer number of places it could happen will even it out.

And, as I have been saying: it's not just the number of planets out there, but the number of planets out there that could allow for habitable climates for life to exist, let alone prosper the way it would have to for evolution to come this far. So far, scientists have not found a single planet on which life can thrive other than Earth. You can't just look at the quantity of the galaxies, stars, or planets out there, you have to look at the quality. The placement of the galaxy in the universe is important: the planet could not be near the center of the universe. If earth truly were the center of the universe, as people used to think, earth wouldn't even exist anymore...I highly doubt it would've even existed back when people first thought they were in the center of the universe. Also, there are three types of galaxies in the universe: globular, cluster, and spiral. The only type of galaxy stable enough for a planet that can sustain life is a spiral galaxy. Not only that, the solar system the planet needs to be in has to be in one of the distant arms otherwise the pull of gravity is too strong for a proper orbit and other stars could be too close and could also effect a proper orbit. Not to mention, any planet has to be at a certain distance from the star so they don't get too hot (Mercury, Venus) or too cold (Mars, etc). Not to mention the planets would have to be solid, not gaseous and would need a proper atmosphere. Now, why don't you apply that to your statistics?

[mellowguy]

I did apply it to my statistics. Were you to make it 1000 times less likely, there would still be billions of life likely planets. Plus, the fact that scientists haven't found any yet doesn't prove anything, because not only do we lack the equipment to really search, how many could we have looked at- 5, 10, 1000, 10000? We're talking about quadrillions over quadrillions over quadrillions here. Our planetary observations are not enough to prove anything.

[wi_sam]

Anybody read Angels Demons By Dan Brown?

Very interesting facts there.

[leshinor]

Yes, there is people that use religion as an excuse to justify their action- Like a christian killing an abortion doctor. That's not being christian, it's being a damn hypocrite. Also it is a stereotype that muslim is a violent religion, but that's because most of them are "extremists" that believe in killing non-believers.

As for the holocaust. It wasn't caused by religion, it was caused by the hatred toward the Jews. Hilter hated non-germans. Wars are caused by anger and hatred. It's just many use religion as a way to justify their actions.

You have two things to thank religion for and that's the laws we follow. The first being that most of the present day laws was used long ago, and was inspired by religion. As for the second, if not for religion, most anime, novels, mangas, and movies that have spirits and demons in them wouldn't have been made, since some are "inspired" from religious belief. Seen D. Gray-Man? Constantine? Inuyasha? Read Da Vinci Code?

Also a true atheist would look upon people in religions as crazy people that believe foolish things, and not fight against something that they think exists. After all, if it's merely a thought, why bother fighting against it? You can't fight thoughts, because just as I can't change what you believe, you can't change what other's believe. People will live their life according to their beliefs, so if you hate religion...then live your life believing that it's just fiction and the followers are crazy people, but try to not commit any hate crimes. Sorry for the long response.

I agree with you on all of your points except from one. You can change a person's belief. If not, then the world as we know it wouldn't exist since humans wouldn't be able to convince each other in order to advance.

[Kamouri]

Stop debating about the two and mix em together, you'll get surprising results

[declizard]

This is a major topic going in the U.S.. What do you believe in? That animals evolve to their environment over time (that humans evolved from apes) or that a single holy god created all of life.

Here is the topic link
http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/creation-vs-evolution.htm


Edit: 2/14/09
Sorry, I just reliesed that I didn't say what I was for. Personly I don't care, but after seeing the dabate on this on the television, I'll have to go with Evolution. I mean it is clearly explained and can be proved in many ways. I'm not going to dis Creationism so I'm not going to say anything about it exept it is possible that either both are right or wrong. Even a combination of the 2 is possible, I know there is no true answer.

in the beginning the great spirit was glad of the humans on earth, Chief Running Dog